View Full Version : Dyno day at AMS for European Cars
This is a cross post from AWTT. Just wanted to offer it up to you guys also ^_^
With much arm twisting, I have gotten us a facility for a Dyno Day for us Audi TT (and fellow Euro) members!
What: Dyno Day and GTG for fellow Audi TT (and non-TT owners) at the AMS Facilities in Carson, CA. We will provide free food and drinks! (Hey, since its coming out of my own pocket, think "pizza" ^_^). We have a 1000 sq. ft. lounge facility, playstation2, free espresso bar, big screen TV, couch,etc. Bring your family and friends and just hang around for a good time!
We will be dyno'ing on a MAHA LPS-3000, an official Audi and Porsche approved dyno. More information can be found here! (http://www.maha.de/de/PS_Freigaben_AUDI_Uebersicht.asp) This dyno has a calibration white paper written by Audi and is known to give accurate HP rating!
MAHA Computer and Control Unit
http://images15.fotki.com/v245/photos/5/558330/2888075/MahaComputer-vi.jpg
MAHA Dyno Fan that blows at 70mph!
http://images14.fotki.com/v255/photos/5/558330/2888075/MAHA1-vi.jpg
MAHA Dyno Area
http://images15.fotki.com/v229/photos/5/558330/2888075/MAHA2-vi.jpg
When: April 29th, Starting at 9AM.
Where: Advanced Motorsport Solution (http://www.amspower.com) in Carson, CA.
1035 E. Bedmar St. Carson, CA 90746. We are near the 110/405 intersection (right behind IKEA!)
Cost: $100/3 Dyno runs. We need atleast 20 people to sign up
Contact me with signup information!
dskim75@gmail.com
protijy337
03-14-2006, 02:41 PM
I'd def be down but I don't need an AWD dyno and $100 is a bit in the $$$ side for me :(
:tup: AWD guys looks like a very nice facility!
I'd def be down but I don't need an AWD dyno and $100 is a bit in the $$$ side for me :(
:tup: AWD guys looks like a very nice facility!
The the thing about MAHA is that the rollers are eddy current controlled (big magnetic brakes) instead of a inertial (like the dynojet) so it uses electricity to create load on the rollers! Thus there is a overhead cost running this versus a dynojet; the dynojet is praticially free!
But I understand your concern! Let me see what I can arrange for FWD guys! But come and chill, eat free pizza, play games, etc!
gest24
03-14-2006, 03:10 PM
What about an SCE member with an AWD Subie?
What about an SCE member with an AWD Subie?
Check the NASIOC SCIC forums. I'm setting up a Prodrive Dynoday soon. Just working out the details with dan@prodrive.
We are doing a 24th GTG at AMS. Trying to get sponsors for that event so i don't have pay for the pizza :D
-daniel
I've never been to AMS so I will have to stop by and say Hi Mark
I've never been to AMS so I will have to stop by and say Hi Mark
Yup! stop on by! just come to hang out or something :)
Tom (aka Godzilla)
03-14-2006, 08:14 PM
free pizza? i'm there.
too bad you wont be doin too many FWD cars, I have been dying to dyno my quad turbo, three cam, 20.1:1, VTEC ABA with a 300 shot and new piston return springs. I think it should do close to 1100 at the wheels in 7th gear, but unfortunately the clutch starts to slip around 120whp............yeah.......too bad....................
too bad you wont be doin too many FWD cars, I have been dying to dyno my quad turbo, three cam, 20.1:1, VTEC ABA with a 300 shot and new piston return springs. I think it should do close to 1100 at the wheels in 7th gear, but unfortunately the clutch starts to slip around 120whp............yeah.......too bad....................
LOL! Well let me see what I can do! I don't want to let my FWD brother's down!
oc-audica
03-14-2006, 09:36 PM
Mark is awsome and MAHA > all dynos
I've been once for the subie shootout and would not miss this one for anything!
/me crosses fingers to have the G2 on**
Awesome! Everyone who is interested for the dyno email me (even if you are fwd! ;)) and i'll start getting a list together so I can slot people in. And i need a headcount so i know how much pizza to order!
AMS is a great dyno, I've had my car dyno'ed there plenty of times before. Shop is top notch.
Thanks for the :tup: for AMS
FYI: Usual cost of dyno run there is $200/3 runs for AWD. I'm getting it for you guys for 50% AND giving you guys free pizza!
I hope you like looking at very low readings from a dyno because that is what you will get so dont be disappointed. I also hope you like watching your car do a 5 minute run thru 1 gear since the maha puts high loads during the run which is why the readings tend to come put very low.
Ouch, price is high. All other shops are $150 for an hr per car which is well over 3 runs or 3 runs.
Mark dialed down the load on the dyno a while back so the runs aren't as long as they used to be.
Mark dialed down the load on the dyno a while back so the runs aren't as long as they used to be.
Well thats good. I am actually hitting Harman Motive tomorrow.
I hope you like looking at very low readings from a dyno because that is what you will get so dont be disappointed. I also hope you like watching your car do a 5 minute run thru 1 gear since the maha puts high loads during the run which is why the readings tend to come put very low.
Ouch, price is high. All other shops are $150 for an hr per car which is well over 3 runs or 3 runs.
lol, i presume 5 minute run is an exaggeration, right? I've seen Marc dyno on the MAHA for over 1 year on many different and i've never seen a run longer then 25 to 30 seconds.
As for the numbers being low, I agree with you completely! Its not dynojet numbers at all; on stock cars (and he has many pulls on his database of stock cars) the crank HP and the manufacturer's HP are less then1% off!! When you calibrate the machine using a Manufacturer's white paper and start getting the same HP that the manufacturer claims across the board on multiple cars i feel there is little room to doubt the accuracy of the machine. And just for giggles, I'll ask Marc to show these numbers on the dyno day also!
Regarding the cost:
MAHA dyno's require electricity to generate load so there is an inherent overhead per run.
And a Dyno run isn't just a "dyno run". Marc has his tech's check your car out, make sure you have enough oil, tire pressure, coolant, etc. There is putting the car on the dyno, strapping the car down, then doing the dyno run. He gives us vw/audi guys porsche treatment ;)
lol, i presume 5 minute run is an exaggeration, right? I've seen Marc dyno on the MAHA for over 1 year on many different and i've never seen a run longer then 25 to 30 seconds.
As for the numbers being low, I agree with you completely! Its not dynojet numbers at all; on stock cars (and he has many pulls on his database of stock cars) the crank HP and the manufacturer's HP are less then1% off!! When you calibrate the machine using a Manufacturer's white paper and start getting the same HP that the manufacturer claims across the board on multiple cars i feel there is little room to doubt the accuracy of the machine. And just for giggles, I'll ask Marc to show these numbers on the dyno day also!
Regarding the cost:
MAHA dyno's require electricity to generate load so there is an inherent overhead per run.
And a Dyno run isn't just a "dyno run". Marc has his tech's check your car out, make sure you have enough oil, tire pressure, coolant, etc. There is putting the car on the dyno, strapping the car down, then doing the dyno run. He gives us vw/audi guys porsche treatment ;)
well remember that the dyno reads whp not crank hp, this means that the dyno owner must put in a % of loss to come up with that crank hp that equals that of the auto manufacture. The difference is that the other dyno's out there dont add the drive line loss to the readings since they just read out the whp only.
well remember that the dyno reads whp not crank hp, this means that the dyno owner must put in a % of loss to come up with that crank hp that equals that of the auto manufacture. The difference is that the other dyno's out there dont add the drive line loss to the readings since they just read out the whp only.
Yup, you are 100% correct sir. The MAHA LPS-3000 does a driveline loss post dyno to estimate your driveline loss (instead of a generic base % they multiply across the board) so that you know your car's individual driveline loss.
Since you are at Harmann today, you should stop by AMS. We are just aroudn the corner (about 3 or 4 miles away!)
-daniel
Well I was at Eurocode before and after my dyno run, was able to hit 429.95 whp today on 110 octane running a bit rich at 11:1.
oc-audica
03-16-2006, 12:52 AM
Damn I'd love to see you hit that MAHA
I know about the corrected figures from the MAHA, doesn't it also give WHP?
Yup! whp, boost, lambda, timing, intake temp, hp, drivetrain loss ... it gives you alot of info ^_^
So any takers on the dyno day so far?
Yup! whp, boost, lambda, timing, intake temp, hp, drivetrain loss ... it gives you alot of info ^_^
So any takers on the dyno day so far?
I would but I just dont like the idea of making that long of a pull thru 1 gear, hell my car can move a 1/2 mile in less time then that from a stand still. Plus all that load on the car does make it run way richer then it should and since are cars load based that isn't a good thing.
I understand your concern but let me bring up the following points:
A) MAHA has been approved and have calibration white papers from Audi and Porsche. If the manufacturers deem that this dyno's method of determining horsepower is the correct way, why should you be scared?
B) Why are you scared of 100% load for 20 to 25 seconds? Compared to a dynjet which gives 60% load for 5 seconds? It is even less justifiable if you consider that it won't give accurate numbers on a highly modified car like yours. Would you consider that accurate?
Plus all that load on the car does make it run way richer then it should and since are cars load based that isn't a good thing.
C) So let me ask you a final question: Is WHP that you get from an engine which isn't 100% loaded accurate? That's like determining HP from partial throttle!
If you are worried about duration at 100% load... let me give you a accurate scenerios in my car (Audi TT, Stage 3) that i experience on a daily basis:
73 Freeway Southbound, 100% about 1 minute
73 Freeway Northbound, 100% load, about 30 seconds
Two year daily commuter, running strong, 100miles a day. 100% load quite often and for long durations of time. If your performance parts are meant to last, they will last conditions like this.
edit:typo
I understand your concern but let me bring up the following points:
A) MAHA has been approved and have calibration white papers from Audi and Porsche. If the manufacturers deem that this dyno's method of determining horsepower is the correct way, why should you be scared?
B) Why are you scared of 100% load for 20 to 25 seconds? Compared to a dynjet which gives 60% load for 5 seconds? It is even less justifiable if you consider that it won't give accurate numbers on a highly modified car like yours. Would you consider that accurate?
C) So let me ask you a final question: Is WHP that you get from an engine which isn't 100% loaded accurate? That's like determining HP from partial throttle!
If you are worried about duration at 100% load... let me give you a accurate scenerios in my car (Audi TT, Stage 3) that i experience on a daily basis:
73 Freeway Southbound, 100% about 1 minute
73 Freeway Northbound, 100% load, about 30 seconds
Two year daily commuter, running strong, 100miles a day. 100% load quite often and for long durations of time. If your performance parts are meant to last, they will last conditions like this.
edit:typo
For 1 you never see 100% load on the fwy unless you are starting from idle in top gear and even then your load drops once you get into the mid rpms. I have yet to see the earth put load on a car, which is exactly what the dyno is doing by causing the rollers to spin slower. Sorry but I dont have a stock car, I have nearly more money invested under the hood then most A4's cost brand new. It doesn't have anything to do with how long the parts are meant to last, it is the fact that the MAHA is putting a load on the car which it will NEVER see in the real world. Plus the fact that every dyno shop will make you sign a waver that removes them responsibilty if the car blows and if you know the history of the shop you will know why I haven't been on it yet.
How do you get that any other dyno but the MAHA wont give correct readings? All they do is read hp at the wheels which is the only thing that really counts. Putting more load on a car on a dyno doesn't make it correct since that is not real world conditions at all.
For 1 you never see 100% load on the fwy unless you are starting from idle in top gear and even then your load drops once you get into the mid rpms. I have yet to see the earth put load on a car, which is exactly what the dyno is doing by causing the rollers to spin slower.
Have you driven up the 73 southbound up the hill? That is a freeway and I've driven 100% load there. Connect a VAG-COM and see for yourself!
Sorry but I dont have a stock car, I have nearly more money invested under the hood then most A4's cost brand new. It doesn't have anything to do with how long the parts are meant to last, it is the fact that the MAHA is putting a load on the car which it will NEVER see in the real world.
like I said, have you driven the 73 uphill southbound? If you have, you would have gotten 100% load.
Plus the fact that every dyno shop will make you sign a waver that removes them responsibilty if the car blows and if you know the history of the shop you will know why I haven't been on it yet.
Would you clarify who's car blew up on a dyno? I know of a car that blew up on Harmann's dyno.. but you seemed to have dyno'd there yesterday. How were you safer at Harmann's then at AMS?
So let me bring this scenerio up to you:
You own a dyno. Many different type of cars, stock, modified, etc. and many different dyno days have been done on it. Nothing has exploded. Modified Porsches, 800 NM Carlson AMG E55's, 500 hp S4's and RS4's all run fine on this dyno.
You decide to do a dyno day. A local tuner comes with his car. His car explodes. No other cars during that dyno day have problems.
local tuner blames you because the MAHA is too strong? I guess the dyno that Techart uses, Gemballa uses, Abt uses, Prodrives uses is too strong. give me a break. Ofcourse he'll blame you before he blames himself. :bs::bs::bs:
I am not doubting the love and the money you have invested in your car. If anything I respect you even more for that and the fact you didn't make this thread into a flame fest.
How do you get that any other dyno but the MAHA wont give correct readings? All they do is read hp at the wheels which is the only thing that really counts. Putting more load on a car on a dyno doesn't make it correct since that is not real world conditions at all.
For your argument to be justified you have to prove that you will never hit 100% real world conditions. I beg to differ; i bring up 73 Southbound hill, a real world location where I hit real world 100% engine loads. Do a 5th gear pull up that hill. you'll hit 100% for a very long time :)
MAHA is more accurate because it gives you a realistic drivetrain loss which measures your crank HP, not because of the load it puts out.
The load is there so that a tuner who works on MAHA's can account for all possible conditions when they tune, such as 100% load, so that they can make the most robust and failsafe product for their customers.
Anyhow, I am away for the remainder of the week! I hope everyone has a nice weekend and email me to sign up for the dyno day!
Have you driven up the 73 southbound up the hill? That is a freeway and I've driven 100% load there. Connect a VAG-COM and see for yourself!
like I said, have you driven the 73 uphill southbound? If you have, you would have gotten 100% load.
Would you clarify who's car blew up on a dyno? I know of a car that blew up on Harmann's dyno.. but you seemed to have dyno'd there yesterday. How were you safer at Harmann's then at AMS?
So let me bring this scenerio up to you:
You own a dyno. Many different type of cars, stock, modified, etc. and many different dyno days have been done on it. Nothing has exploded. Modified Porsches, 800 NM Carlson AMG E55's, 500 hp S4's and RS4's all run fine on this dyno.
You decide to do a dyno day. A local tuner comes with his car. His car explodes. No other cars during that dyno day have problems.
local tuner blames you because the MAHA is too strong? I guess the dyno that Techart uses, Gemballa uses, Abt uses, Prodrives uses is too strong. give me a break. Ofcourse he'll blame you before he blames himself. :bs::bs::bs:
I am not doubting the love and the money you have invested in your car. If anything I respect you even more for that and the fact you didn't make this thread into a flame fest.
For your argument to be justified you have to prove that you will never hit 100% real world conditions. I beg to differ; i bring up 73 Southbound hill, a real world location where I hit real world 100% engine loads. Do a 5th gear pull up that hill. you'll hit 100% for a very long time :)
MAHA is more accurate because it gives you a realistic drivetrain loss which measures your crank HP, not because of the load it puts out.
The load is there so that a tuner who works on MAHA's can account for all possible conditions when they tune, such as 100% load, so that they can make the most robust and failsafe product for their customers.
What block are you using to read load? Can you post up a log where your load is 100% thru the whole gear for 30 seconds to 1 minute long?
How many cars go on the MAHA and run way too rich? Because most of the people I have talked to say that is exactly what happens when they run on that dyno.
Ok so you get high loads going up hill, but do you drive up hill everytime you are in your car? Pretty sure that much load is more then most here would see during 1% of their driving time.
Marc@AMS
03-16-2006, 12:47 PM
Hello CMH
Marc here from AMS :cool:
I have no idea what you are referring to about the 1st gear comment. Let me point out how we conduct a dyno run.
1) Check out on car for safety issues tires oil etc...
2) Car gets tied down on the roller set
3) Data Acq lines are connected for measurements of RPM, Boost, Etc...
4) Fan is on and a warm-up run is conducted to warm up everything Oils, Tires, CV Grease etc... (Also with no Load !!!)
5)Then we make the power Measurement
How ? the car starts in 1st gear (Again with no load ! Shifted to 2nd then 3rd and finally to 4th or whatever gear is as close to 1:1 gear ratio. (Again with NO LOAD !!)
6) Once the engine settles in 4th gear at about 1000 RPM Full Throttle is applied and the Dyno makes the measurement.
7) Once the maximum RPM Desired is reached the car is left in the dynoed gear in this example 4th, the clutch is pressed and we now allow the dyno to collect the coastdown information. This Automatically gives the Dyno the Exact driveline loss and allows wheel power to be converted into Uncorrected engine power. Once the uncorrected engine power is in memory the dyno corrects for the Environmental conditions automatically and presents the Corrected engine power at the crank. Now the dyno takes it even a step further and now since it knows the engine power at the crank is back calculates the torque at the crankshaft.
Differences that I will also point out with all other dynos vs. the Maha and the reason that "the word on the street is that the Maha reads low"
The real truth of the matter is that it is not low and a development engineer from the UK that searched up and down the state for a Maha quoted it is "spot on" he also concurs that the other dyno shops have many variables to contend with especially in the cooling department.
Other Dynos
You only get to make a TQ measurement at the wheel and once that is acquired you convert it to HP by the normal conversion. They may also correct it for the weather as well.
I have made several tests to prove when I can dyno a car in 3rd, 4th, 5th and even 6th gear up to 300Kph. The wheel HP result is different for each gear as well as the run time. Why to prove that you cannot just take any old % for a driveline loss and use it to come up with Est. Crank HP.
The transmission in all cars is a torque multiplier! With out a proper coastdown test which is always different in 3rd, 4th, 5th and even 6th you are just wasting your time and going away with results that are a "best guess". Sheesch sorry guys that this post is long.
Back to it I have also even seen the same car the same gear change driveline loss if I run it and walk away for 20 minutes. Also to address your and LoSz's statement of the 100% load stuff. Case example you thing the dyno puts 100% load on the car ?? If that were the case you could have an engine that makes 100Whp@3000 Rpm the Maha would have to hold it at 100Whp and is would never move. That would be the case of a constant speed or constant Rpm test (which we can do) but never during a power curve test is that done in this manner.
So in conclusion I suggest you take a look into what you to say before you try to cloud the eyes of the others here on the forums.
Marc/Advanced Motorsport
Marc@AMS
03-16-2006, 12:49 PM
CMH
Also I am glad to see some good 1/4 mile times what spec is your car B6? B7 what mods
Marc
CMH
Also I am glad to see some good 1/4 mile times what spec is your car B6? B7 what mods
Marc
Wasnt trying to cloud anyone's eye, just info that has been said by many people that have tested at your shop.
I own a B5
2033cc buit by the guys at Dynamic Racing Solutions
GT35r
Full-Race.com tube manifold
034efi stand alone
75lbs injectors
dual walbro fuel pumps(intank and inline)
Haven't ran the 1/4 mile with the stand alone yet.
Marc you wouldn't happen to have any video of you doing the dyno testing of cars on your MAHA?
oc-audica
03-16-2006, 02:06 PM
CMH you should just come watch and hold on Standby- watch the other pulls and get comfy then jump on! :tup::tup::tup:
oc-audica
03-16-2006, 02:07 PM
Hey Losz put me down for sure I want in, sc or not.
dyno, prize fror lowest-highest numbers? I will be there for sure, but not to dyno, like I said, clutch slippage....................HAHA
CMH you should just come watch and hold on Standby- watch the other pulls and get comfy then jump on! :tup::tup::tup:
Maybe, that is well over a month away and I will be back up at 034efi to retune for 30+ psi in a few weeks.
Hey Guys,
Thanks for you interest! If you want to sign up for the dyno day, email me (dskim75@gmail.com) so I lock in a dyno time for you!
-daniel
oc-audica
03-17-2006, 01:15 PM
Would be pretty sweet to make it all audi/vw
This one will be an mostly Euro event. There is an non-dyno event for the Subaru world on March 24th (next friday) but anyone is welcomed to come to that one! That's just a general gtg but we are expecting around 30 to 40 cars.
But for the Subaru guys: I'm setting up a official Prodrive Dyno day so i haven't forgotten you guys either!
Bump! RS4 in the AMS Showroom!
http://jeffbphotos.com/links/AMS/IMG_6888.jpg
Msg me so I can reserve dyno time slots for you guys!
Bump! Ingolstadt West will be there with its APR Stage III+ for the 225 Audi TT that makes an amazing 383 HP!
Email me at dskim75@gmail.com to set up and pay for a time slot.
Updated Prices!:
$80 FWD
$90 RWD
$100 AWD!
Jump in before all the slots are gone!
Bump! WMS might show up with their 550HP Del Rio kit! wow wow wow!
L8 APEKS
04-11-2006, 12:41 PM
I'm kinda interested. I need a baseline before I do a few more things on the 944. I'd love to dyno the Volvo but she has a blown H/G ATM. It's just about $$$. :(
I would officially be the weakest car out there by far...are there any other ~130whp cars that are gonna be present? I'm a little intimidated. :smokem:
EDIT: I will be racing the 24 Hours of Adrenaline that weekend...maybe next time!
I'm kinda interested. I need a baseline before I do a few more things on the 944. I'd love to dyno the Volvo but she has a blown H/G ATM. It's just about $$$. :(
I would officially be the weakest car out there by far...are there any other ~130whp cars that are gonna be present? I'm a little intimidated. :smokem:
EDIT: I will be racing the 24 Hours of Adrenaline that weekend...maybe next time!
Bring your car out :) You'll be suprised by the amount of cars out there are running 130whpish!
and much love for volvo's!
oc-audica
04-17-2006, 01:34 PM
I expect to be around 130whp (that's some wishful thinking)
stock is 207hp quattro- w/ TIP only added intake/exhaust
Bump! 1 week left!
L8 APEKS: We might have other Porsche owners show up also :D
oc-audica
04-24-2006, 01:01 PM
Hey LoSz how many people are confirmed to dyno?
Well I would go but my car is going back to the shop for a few changes.
CMH: Come out and hang out then :D
oc-audica: We have alot of people who want to come but not enough confirmations! Don't know how much pizza to buy :(
CMH: Come out and hang out then :D
oc-audica: We have alot of people who want to come but not enough confirmations! Don't know how much pizza to buy :(
That might be a little hard without a car.
What stuff are you having worked on?
90quattrocoupe
04-24-2006, 03:49 PM
Sorry, I won't be able to make it. I will be at LV motorspeedway, dyno testing my car. :D
Greg W.
What stuff are you having worked on?
Need to upgrade my fuel pump setup and going from a 2.5bar map sensor to a 4.5bar.
Cool! Taking it up to 034efi?
Cool! Taking it up to 034efi?
Yep back up to 034 for about a week. Just hate the trips back and forth.
Yup! those guys are great guys. They were down at AMS to check out the dyno. They do some impressive work!
Yup! those guys are great guys. They were down at AMS to check out the dyno. They do some impressive work!
Was that this weekend?
oh. Maybe he is looking to get a dyno for the shop, something I will ask him when I see him tomorrow.
oc-audica
04-26-2006, 09:20 AM
c'mon you guys lets go dyno!!
I agree! Lets get more of us euro guys up and dyno'ing!
oc-audica
04-26-2006, 02:53 PM
OK so far (word from AMS) is that it is mostly Audi's signed up (like 13ish) and one Subie with about 20 spots available from 9:30 to 4 through the whole day.
I don't know what time I'll be shootin up at but probably before lunch.
Yup, aFe is doing a R&D run on some street suby cars durin the lunch hour. We have time post also.
The porsches are booked for the morning. I just everyone should just hang around and get to know each other. motorheads are motorheads regardless of their badge.
-daniel
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