So anyone know why Subaru and Saab joined together?

[Ted_E]

What's the deal with the new Saab 9-2X? It's a WRX wagon complete with turbo Boxer engine and subaru all-wheel drive system. It's only got the Saab interior and grill on the front, other than that it's all Suby! But why Subaru and Saab of all combos? I have nothing against Subarus...I think they're awesome cars and given the chance I would own a WRX STI in a heart beat (in blue of course) ;) !

[madajb]

They're both GM companies, SAAB in whole, and Subaru in part.
-ajb

[Ted_E]

really? wow didn't know Subaru was part of GM...but they're still built in Japan right?

[Paul]

Just recently Ted. Saab/GM purchased i believe 25% of Fuji heavy metal industries, parent company for Subaru.

[bugzy]

I think its a great combine ... WRX's needed a upgrade in luxury and looks. Saab needed performance

[Ted_E]

I think its a great combine ... WRX's needed a upgrade in luxury and looks. Saab needed performance

yeah the 9-3 viggen was what it needed...don't know why they dropped that car. It was one of the few Saabs I wouldn't mind driving.

[Woody]

Since I bought my 05 WRX Wagon (in Blue :D ) I have been on the Subaru boards and there is quite a bit of discussion about the Saabaru relationship.

GM wanted to have more models in the Saab lineup to fill the showrooms. They also wanted to get some more of the youthful sport enthusiasts that are buying cars like crazy right now, hence the 92x and the upcoming 97x (which is actually a Chevy Trailblazer) . In the near future, Subaru will be coming out with a 7 passenger crossover vehicle, and Saab will get a version of this vehicle.

The WRX and the 92x are built side by side in the same factories. Interestingly enough, Saab is offering a deep discount on the 92x. It is enough of a discount that you can get one for the same price as the WRX!

They do share just about every component, except for the front end sheet metal, the interiors, and the brakes (or is it suspension? I am not sure). So, a little more luxury for the same price aint too bad!

[Ted_E]

thanks for a additional info...I think it's kinda cool how almost all of the Subaru mods will work on the Saab. I'm picturing it right now...400+hp Saab 9-2x with just simple Subaru bolt-ons and turbo upgrade :) I guess it's the perfect car for those who like the JDM import scene but want to stay with European cars

[madajb]

I know it makes sense from a production/company standpoint, but from a consumer standpoint, I think it sucks.
I like my marques cleanly separated, I think the idea that the guy next to me has essentially the same car as me but from a "different" manufacturer is...well...I just don't like it. heh.
-ajb

[Ted_E]

very true...and how many people buying that Saab would actually buy it if they knew they were buying 99% Subaru WRX?

[creanium]

very true...and how many people buying that Saab would actually buy it if they knew they were buying 99% Subaru WRX?
It's one thing to share platforms, but to just rebadge an entire car? Not to offend any Subaru drivers because I'm not saying Saab is better than Subaru. If I'm in the market for a Saab, then I want to buy a TRUE Saab, not a Saabaru. There's a certain character and heritage in each carmaker, and that's one thing I would look for in a car. If I were looking at purchasing a Saab, I would stay away from the 9-2X BECAUSE it's a Subaru and not a true Saab.

When the 9-2X was first announced, I questioned the 9-2X as being a true Euro car. Just because it carries a Euro nameplate, does not make it a Euro car. If you go to Saab's website, they say right there that the 9-2X is manufactured by Fuji Heavy Industrial (Subaru's parent company).

[bugzy]

It's one thing to share platforms, but to just rebadge an entire car? Not to offend any Subaru drivers because I'm not saying Saab is better than Subaru. If I'm in the market for a Saab, then I want to buy a TRUE Saab, not a Saabaru. There's a certain character and heritage in each carmaker, and that's one thing I would look for in a car. If I were looking at purchasing a Saab, I would stay away from the 9-2X BECAUSE it's a Subaru and not a true Saab.

When the 9-2X was first announced, I questioned the 9-2X as being a true Euro car. Just because it carries a Euro nameplate, does not make it a Euro car. If you go to Saab's website, they say right there that the 9-2X is manufactured by Fuji Heavy Industrial (Subaru's parent company). Thats a very interesting perspective. Definitely a valid one.

But just to toss in the mix, look at VW/Audi/Lambo. I dont see many people arguing against buying an Audi because it shares stuff with a VW. Or a Lambo even though its uses some Audi knobs. Or the Lambo because it pretty much close to a quattro. Of course we talking about companies that are majorly owned by a company sharing stuff.

Not arguing your point, just tossing in an idea

[madajb]

Thats a very interesting perspective. Definitely a valid one.

But just to toss in the mix, look at VW/Audi/Lambo. I dont see many people arguing against buying an Audi because it shares stuff with a VW. Or a Lambo even though its uses some Audi knobs. Or the Lambo because it pretty much close to a quattro. Of course we talking about companies that are majorly owned by a company sharing stuff.

Not arguing your point, just tossing in an idea
Myself, I'd be majorly pissed off if I bought an Audi, and the next model year VW looked "really similar".
Similarly, I'd be pissed off if my Lambo had a radio that looked as if it were lifted straight out of a VW.
-ajb

[bugzy]

Myself, I'd be majorly pissed off if I bought an Audi, and the next model year VW looked "really similar".
Similarly, I'd be pissed off if my Lambo had a radio that looked as if it were lifted straight out of a VW.
-ajb
We'll ... id have to agree. But people dont seem to care. Or maybe they just buy them Lambo's not even knowing its pretty much a supercar Audi :)

[creanium]

Thats a very interesting perspective. Definitely a valid one.

But just to toss in the mix, look at VW/Audi/Lambo. I dont see many people arguing against buying an Audi because it shares stuff with a VW. Or a Lambo even though its uses some Audi knobs. Or the Lambo because it pretty much close to a quattro. Of course we talking about companies that are majorly owned by a company sharing stuff.

Not arguing your point, just tossing in an idea
I think the difference lies in the heritage of the car. Take the Passat and A4 for instance. Even though they share the same platform and there are similar parts used in both cars, they are, for the most part, different enough cars to justify spending the extra $6-10K on the A4 over the Passat. Audi still made the car their own and manufacture the car separately from where VW manufactures the Passat. So for all intents and purposes, even though the car shares the same platform and some parts, they're still two fairly different vehicles.

Whereas with the 9-2X, GM basically handed Saab a WRX and said, "here, make this look like your own car." Saab throws on some new headlights, a new grille, changes the interior a little bit, and hands the changes back over to Subaru for manufacturing.

[madajb]

We'll ... id have to agree. But people dont seem to care. Or maybe they just buy them Lambo's not even knowing its pretty much a supercar Audi :)
But see, that's the point, they shouldn't have to know.
Marques should be distinctive entities, not marketing creations.
But, I guess in today's profit driven world, that's probably a pipe dream.
heh.
-ajb

[bugzy]

Both ya guys have got your point through to me.

But to defend Saab's decision. Saab is one of the smallest auto brands (sells in States). Ill bet they sell less than Kia or maybe about same as Daewoo does (quantity wise).

And they probably arent really making much revenue compares to the other brands.

So to spend the $$ for Saab engineers to create new chassis and bodies and motors is probably very cost prohibited. Now to merge with Subaru and take their pre-designed product and repackage it, is super cost effect. And honestly i would consider the Saab 9-2x.

On the other hand, Jay (editor from Primedia) has a project 9-2X right now for Sports Compact magazine, and he said it still feels like a japanese car.

But oh wells ... its business

[GTiGirl]

I personally think it is great. I like Subaru's, but I don't like how they are really stripped down. So, if I were in the market for a sport wagon, I would definitely consider the Saab because I would get Subaru performance with Saab luxury.

The Touareg and the Cayenne is another example. Virtually the same car, different engines, but really, the only other differences are in the body work. The chasis are the same, and you get a lot of Porsche quality and workmanship for the price of a VW. I am looking at the V8 Loaded Touareg which is less than a stripped down V6 Cayenne. So, I get Porsche refinement with more HP and towing capacity for less.

[audiracer2002]

whether people realize or not, car manufacturers have been sharing platforms for a LONG time. sometimes they are visually more similar than others. if you wanted the car manufacturers to be completely distinct and not share with one another, then you'd better be prepared to spend a whole lot more per car. all the sharing of platforms, motors etc. starts with a sharing of R&D costs which helps keep the cost of cars down some. not to mention with more collaboration you have more of a chance to end up with a better product.

[madajb]

The Touareg and the Cayenne is another example. Virtually the same car, different engines, but really, the only other differences are in the body work. The chasis are the same, and you get a lot of Porsche quality and workmanship for the price of a VW. I am looking at the V8 Loaded Touareg which is less than a stripped down V6 Cayenne. So, I get Porsche refinement with more HP and towing capacity for less.
Right, but what about the guy who buys the Porsche and has to deal with "Ah, it's just an over priced Touareg" from all his country club buddies?
Think of the rich people, they have feelings too! =)
-ajb

[Alan_One]

You guys are killing me. The Subaru is a sweet car. The Saab should be a sweet car. I agree with Alan on the - I don't want a copy, I want an Original - thing. It burns me when I see a Phaeton (think rebadged A8) but like Rob said, This has been happening for decades and it's definately something that was started by the American car makers (Firebird/Camaro). But the only reason I didn't seriously consider a WRX when I was looking for an AWD car was that the interior finishes were not up to what I wanted (no offense to the WRX's on this board). I wanted nice leather, solid feeling knobs, and a nice quiet cabin with a rock solid feel. The bottom line was that the finishing was different in the WRX. Now with the Saab and what I've seen of it, It's more in line with what I was looking for. If I was in the market for a car right now I'd seriously look at the Saab.

[bugzy]

http://media3.motorcities.com/03L9A335489264C.jpeg

http://media3.motorcities.com/03L9A335489264A.jpeg

http://media3.motorcities.com/03L9A335489264B.jpeg

[creanium]

whether people realize or not, car manufacturers have been sharing platforms for a LONG time. sometimes they are visually more similar than others. if you wanted the car manufacturers to be completely distinct and not share with one another, then you'd better be prepared to spend a whole lot more per car. all the sharing of platforms, motors etc. starts with a sharing of R&D costs which helps keep the cost of cars down some. not to mention with more collaboration you have more of a chance to end up with a better product.
I'm all for platform sharing, but I think there's a fine line between platform sharing, and flat-out rebadging. Take the Volvo S40 for instance. It's on the same platform as the Ford Focus and Mazda 3; but it is still a distinctly different car. You look at an S40, inside and out, and you can easily say, "yes, that's a Volvo." Even though the frame was developed and provided by Ford, Volvo still did its own development and design on the car to make it their own.

I'll use the analogy of the Cayenne and Touerag. These SUV's are more platform-sharing than they are rebadging in that their respective manufacturing is overseen by the company whose name is on the SUV. VW doesn't manufacture the Cayenne, nor does Porsche manufacture the Touerag. I've sat in both the Touerag and the Cayenne, and they are two distinctly different vehicles; not so with the 9-2X and Impreza Wagon.

I would be able to accept the 9-2X a bit more as a Saab if it were distinctly a Saab. But its lines, the interior, the engines, and the manufacturing process are all Subaru. Saab has a certain heritage that just isn't there with the 9-2X, so if I were in the market for a European car, I would immediately write off the 9-2X since it's not even manufactured by Saab.

Take a look at these interior shots and tell me A) what's different between the two and B) how the 9-2X is any more "luxurious" than the Impreza.

http://www.subaru.com/images/shop/flash/impreza/photos/photo8_wrx_sport_wagon.jpg
http://www.saabusa.com/flash/92x/gallery/enlarged/int3.jpg

[GTiGirl]

With those photos, you can't feel the leather/cloth or turn the knobs... I guess I cannot make a firm judgement without sitting and driving both vehicles. That Saab is quite sexy though. If only it had a 7700 towing capacity...

[GTIcrazy]

Ever deal with Saab service? My friend ditched his Saab because the service people were terrible. One of his problems was a noisy speedo cable at 70+ mph. Service told him that they could not take the car up to that speed because the speed limit on the nearest freeway was only 55. He got an Allroad next...

[Alan_One]

Paul and I went and checked them out yesterday. The interior finishes are at about VW finish. I liked it better than the wrx. Especially with the 2 tone leather. I was dissapointed to see that they had not relocated the key to the center.

[madajb]

I was dissapointed to see that they had not relocated the key to the center.
Really? That's a deal killer for me.
-ajb

[stevehayes01]

very true...and how many people buying that Saab would actually buy it if they knew they were buying 99% Subaru WRX?
That is precisely why SAAB (GM) and Subaru did it. There are alot of SAAB owners that want an AWD Turbo wagon but would never buy RICE so by refining it and putting a SAAB badge on it they opened the door to even more buyers!

And for those that say now SAAB has performance I will leave it at you must have never driven a 9000 Aero or a 9-5 Aero or a Viggen for that matter. All in all it is just a move that GM made in order to keep the line alive and not have to close plants and kill jobs.


THe same reason that Audi and VW are a team and Chrysler and Merc are in bed together. It is all for sales and marketing.

[thechinks]

correction, 20% ;)

[GTIcrazy]

They're both GM companies, SAAB in whole, and Subaru in part.
-ajb

Exactly...Saab is partly owned by GM. The 9-2X interior is the STi interior without the adjustment wheel for the tranny.

[stevehayes01]

Actually SAAB is a 100% wholey owned GM company and GM's interest in Subaru is solely in 1 car line and thats it with no residual ownership or interet in the company. I work for GM so I can tell you that as factual information. GM has always "Leased" car lines from other makers like Izuzu, Suzuki etc.... It really is pretty common for this to occur I mean Acura did it with the older MDX which was really an Izuzu Trooper. With the 9-2x they punched up the interior but did not make it entirely SAAB (hence no center key). The 9-2x is actually doing fairly well in sales with the 30something's that want the performance of a Subaru but not the kid factor of it. We will see what else GM does to SAAB in the future but for now we have the SAABARU marriage and then the 9-3 line is based on the Ecotec Sunfire/Cobalt/Cavalier/ION chasis and the 9-5 and 99-02 9-3's are shared platform with the L series Saturns. I would expect that this will be atrend that alot of car companies will be adopting in the future to cut costs and compete in the market.