Anyone know what the softeset coilover is?

[badbidet]

I want to get some coilovers eventually maybe around xmas and want to know who makes the softest.
I hear koni are soft and the price is good (I have read other posts)
I know stasis sells koni with linear rate springs(hyperco), they say they are custom valved. Are they really custom valved, or are they the reg. dampers and the custom part is you swapping spring rates till u like one?

And so i dont have to post again.
Are there any good cheap fmic that are similar to apr with inlet and outlet on same side?

[fcastle]

Send a PM to PaulTakeda, he'll know exactly what you need.

[BLACK 1.8T]

I hope you're not planning on dumping your car because you'll be rubbing like no other if you dump on some soft coilovers.

[Skwurlz]

H&R's are soft. Don't run ground control's. It just means you couldn't afford real coilovers. Plus the dampners are not matched for the drop spring rates correctly. It's the cheap way out.

Weitec, KW and B&G are on the stiff side, but you want that if you go low. Still have comfortable rides, but not plush, if you get my meaning.

[MikekiM]

H&R's are soft.
Weitec, KW and B&G are on the stiff side
Do you happen to have any spring rate graphs to back this up?


It just means you couldn't afford real coilovers.
What's a "real coilover" anyhow?

[Skwurlz]

http://tuningzubehor.com/img/products/u-x/we_gewin_gttx.jpghttp://tuningzubehor.com/img/products/a-d/bigm5-8048.jpg
http://tuningzubehor.com/img/products/i-l/kw15280004.jpghttp://www.globalautoshop.com/images/suspension/hr/coilovers.jpg

I can look up the spring rates for all these "real" coilover kit's when your ready to purchase.

This is NOT a coilover:
http://www.ground-control-store.com/images/datapage/8535_dp.jpg

[MikekiM]

And what is this?
http://home.comcast.net/~stevennguyen123/Photos/Prototyperearspringassembly/photos/photo1.jpg

Sorry, but just because a spring/shock combination comes with the body grooved, chrome plated, and bling with pretty springs doesn't make it any more "real" than a properly matched shock with a coilover sleeve.

http://www.aufhaus.com/quattro/coilovers/images/906.jpg
This setup can work just as well as the KW's, Weitec's or B&G that you're selling.

Both are "real" coilovers. In fact, one might even argue that the GC setup is MORE real, since it uses an industry standard 2.5" race spring. Several coilover kits don't use a standard 2.5" spring, and thus you can't swap springs for different rates.

The photograph of the Audi B5 FWD KW kit in your post above is just that way. Is it "real" because it's chrome? Is it less "real" because you're stuck with the springs it comes with, and you can't change to a standard 2.5" spring?

Perhaps you should understand that there's a lot of products out there that you don't sell that are better or just as good as the stuff you're pushing, GC is by no means the only exception.

And in case you didn't know, that first photograph is a real lower spring perch with full aritculation for the MkIV. Only GC and Shine make them to make sure your geometry is perfect when using lowering springs. You won't find those with B&G, KW, or Weitec.

[Skwurlz]

KW and Weitec use 2.5 ID linear rate springs. If you want to use the longer versions you can simply pull the helper springs out.

H&R uses a progressive rate spring to keep the ride soft until a pothole or bump is hit, then they stiffen up. (it's actually alot more complicated, but this is layman's terms)

I have seen Ground Control kits shear into pieces. I have seen the set screws dislodge and allow the entire perch to shift when it becomes unloaded.

Also I am pretty sure Ground Control isn't TUV approved.

Weitec, KW, H&R and Bilstien are all TUV approved. They are extensively tested and certified to be used on the most extreme roadway in the world, the Autobahn. I don't know about you, but I am not going to put any product that vital on my European car unless it carries full TUV approval.

You want to run GC, fine, I have just seen some bad situations caused by poorly designed products, and want to help this guy make an informed decision.

In my opinion, coilover sleeves are the cheap way out. Just get somthing thats matched correctly.

[OmFgRoTfLmFaO]

i ran GC coil sleeves on my 88 jetta coupe.. matched with some bilstein HD shocks.. the ride was bumpy bvut they were great for hard cornering.. i have no complaints.. the ride was just bouncy.. and i didnt mind.. but sir if you are going out to look for something "soft" GC coil sleeves may not be the way to go.. well i guess it could be different with a different shock.. either way whether its considered "real" or fake.. good product..

[badbidet]

Hmm. It sounds like I need to actually ride in some cars with different setups huh. Do I need to register to go to the meets? I think they are on Wed's not sure when or where. I live in Carlsbad, about 45min north of San Diego. Can someone help me out.

[Bmxdubdub]

The softest coil is between what I push out on a Saturday morning or a fat rattlesnake on a cloud of titties. :tup:

[jayDUB]

the softest coilover is a steaming 3 coiler or also known as corned backed rattler:ha: :ha: :ha:

[Schneller]

Hmm. It sounds like I need to actually ride in some cars with different setups huh. Do I need to register to go to the meets? I think they are on Wed's not sure when or where. I live in Carlsbad, about 45min north of San Diego. Can someone help me out.

No, you don't have to register - all you need to do is drive your car down to Fusion, and show up! :tup:

Just make sure you introduce yourself to a couple people, or get a name before you show, otherwise you might just stand there all night as nobody will know who you are :welcome:

[ReiGn52]

H&R uses a progressive rate spring to keep the ride soft until a pothole or bump is hit, then they stiffen up. (it's actually alot more complicated, but this is layman's terms)




can someone elaborate more on how progressive suspension setups work.

[Skwurlz]

can someone elaborate more on how progressive suspension setups work.

Basiclyy the greater the impact the greater the reaction. Instead of being a fixed spring rate, which reacts with the same force over any force applied, the pressure of the spring increases exponentially as force increases against it.

That's the best I can think of on how to describe it.

[jayDUB]

keep jaking my pts. fags

[bugzy]

can someone elaborate more on how progressive suspension setups work.
usually people refer to a progressive spring rate compared to a linear spring rate

basically one end of a progressive spring is wound with softer portion of the coil, when that section compresses, its relatively soft to the other side of the spring which has a stiffer spring rate

therefore as the whole spring compresses, it gets stiffer as a whole

this gives a softer ride when the spring isnt compressed much, but when you start driving harder, the spring is getting compressed more, and the spring becomes stiffer

this allows a street car to feel comfortable on mild road conditions, but stiffens when yo want to drive hard

sorta in a nut shell

[badbidet]

so why linear more predictable?

[Skwurlz]

Correct. Also they can be made smaller/shorter. It's easier to dtermine the spring rates as well in sport/racing enviroments.

With a linear spring rate, if it's too soft, you simply go stiffer, with progressive rates you can get some springs that are inbetween and it's harder to dial in.

[MikekiM]

You guys are aware there is no such product as a true progressive spring?
Springs may have multiple different rates, but they're linear in those regions. A true progressive spring doesn't exist as the cost to manufacture such a beast would be tremendous.

Check out a spring rate graph. There will be a soft section, usually referred to as the dead coil section. Then it'll become linear, which is the section you ride on, then it'll stiffen way up, which is when the spring goes into coil bind.

Most aftermarket springs are linear through the normal range of desired ride height. At the very least you may have a spring which overlaps the dead coil section into the ride height section. It's a bad design, and if you see this, avoid it.

Linear rate springs have a constant rate through their entire range, until they coilbind.

[ncttrnl]

Basiclyy the greater the impact the greater the reaction. Instead of being a fixed spring rate, which reacts with the same force over any force applied, the pressure of the spring increases exponentially as force increases against it.

That's the best I can think of on how to describe it.

Thats not how they work.

The best way to describe is that the spring is divided into a number of sections with each section having a different rate. What happens is that when they compress, the coils in the softer section will touch so the harder sections are the only part left to carry the car. This continues until all the coils are touching and you are out of travel in your suspension.

Some springs aren't even one piece. Some actually have 2 or 3 smaller springs or different rates that have a metal plate between them.

[ncttrnl]

Back on topic...

I have H&R Coilovers and I like them just fine. I used to be much lower than I should be and the ride was just fine. Cornering and all that isn't really helped by going super low but that was easily fixed by raising the car up about an inch or so to a more sane ride height.

[OnTheGreen]

I have tried Bilstein and KW/Oettinger and have come to find the H&R's have the best to offer in handling and comfort.

The KW V3 would give you the adjustability, but at a premium price.

I'd go H&R again if I had to.

[Skwurlz]

Thats not how they work.

The best way to describe is that the spring is divided into a number of sections with each section having a different rate. What happens is that when they compress, the coils in the softer section will touch so the harder sections are the only part left to carry the car. This continues until all the coils are touching and you are out of travel in your suspension.

Some springs aren't even one piece. Some actually have 2 or 3 smaller springs or different rates that have a metal plate between them.

It is too how they work, Progressive rate springs increase resistence exponentialy, as force is applied. Hence the term "Progressive"

The only coilover company I know of that uses anything close to a progressive rate spring is H&R, and they aren't even true progressives.

KW, Weitec, Bilstien and others are linear rates with a "helper" Spring. This helper spring fully collapses when installed and is only there to keep the coil spring alligned when the car is completely unloaded. (very rare, basically you need to get the car airborne for this to happen)

Someone here needs to actually look at a coilover under compression.

There are dual rate coilovers out there, that run 2 different linear spring rates, and are usually found on SCORE trucks, and Sandrails. I've built a couple for friends buggy's, and watching them work through the whoops at 60 mph is the best teaching tool on how coilovers work. The same physic's apply, just on a smaller scale with street cars.

Here's a few of my close friends buggy's:
http://myspace-528.vo.llnwd.net/00881/82/53/881513528_l.jpg
http://myspace-567.vo.llnwd.net/00931/76/53/931863567_l.jpg

Cheers, Travis.

[MikekiM]

It is too how they work, Progressive rate springs increase resistence exponentialy, as force is applied. Hence the term "Progressive"

The only coilover company I know of that uses anything close to a progressive rate spring is H&R, and they aren't even true progressives.

Care to show me a picture or photograph of a real progressive spring?
Or at least elaborate how you would go about making it?

[ncttrnl]

Someone here needs to actually look at a coilover under compression.


Not sure why I'm even responding to you.

The rates in progressive springs is based almost entirely on geometry these days. You can look at whatever you want... sand rails, motorcycles, even leaf springs on trucks. They all depend on certain sections compressing before others do.

This may not seem like much of a difference to you but there is a difference between saying that a spring increases its rate versus saying that a spring is made up of sections of different rates. In some cases, both are accurate but one is more so.

Perhaps in my first post I should have said "Thats not exactly how they work" rather than that it just wasn't how they worked.

[Skwurlz]

Care to show me a picture or photograph of a real progressive spring?
Or at least elaborate how you would go about making it?

Maybe this will help:
http://www.kingsprings.com.au/king_springs_info_progressive_rate.htm

[cmanns05]

Softest by far is Eibach, however all are adjustable and you can have them custom valved if you order from the manufacturer to your rates. I have koni's and IMO they can either be about stock softness or stiff as hell ... this also depends on ride height the more travel you give the setup the softer and longer the rebound. If your going to dump it as was said above expect some rub but stiffening it up should fix that.

[ncttrnl]

Maybe this will help:
http://www.kingsprings.com.au/king_springs_info_progressive_rate.htm

That link that you posted...

It describes exactly what Mike and I are talking about. A progressive spring is made through geometry and the overall rate of the system is determined by when coils touch. Its all about taking different sections of the spring out of the equation for overall spring rate.

Again, all of this has no bearing on the current discussion. When you start describing what is a "true" progressive and what is not, it is important to understand how a simple spring works and how progressives are manufactured these days. When you talk about a spring changing rate, I think materials science because the common spring does not change rate. Thats why coils have to be different distances from eachother or different diameters. When you talk about a suspension progressive spring, I think clever winding geometry.

Really... I think this discussion is waaaay overboard in the context of suspension.

[MikekiM]

Maybe this will help:
http://www.kingsprings.com.au/king_springs_info_progressive_rate.htm
Not even close, that's just a linear spring with some dead coils, or multiple linear regions line ncctnrl posted.

You're going to have trouble, because a true progressive spring doesn't really exist.
Isn't technologically nearly impossible to have a spring rate ramp exponentially. You'd need to make a spring utilitize varying wire diameters, varying coil diameters, AND varying materials to accomplish it. You won't get it with a standard Chromoly steel constant diameter wire.

[badbidet]

rofl so if anyone had to do it again would you get koni or H&R? i will prob drop it around 1.5 so most likely the 1.8 in cause I have a 1.8T jk didnt really want to get into progressive and linear springs, but I guess I feel smarter now but koni and H&R use progressive so we dont need to discuss that anymore.

[ncttrnl]

rofl so if anyone had to do it again would you get koni or H&R? i will prob drop it around 1.5 so most likely the 1.8 in cause I have a 1.8T jk didnt really want to get into progressive and linear springs, but I guess I feel smarter now but koni and H&R use progressive so we dont need to discuss that anymore.

I like my H&Rs and I would probably go with them again. I would take a better look at options other than coilovers if I had to do it again but I have been really happy with my H&R coilovers.