Bush vs Kerry on Vortex

[bugzy]

Well im a moderator on Vortex, so i see in the Black Hole there's a couple topics that are moved. Kind of sad how it becomes a sensitive topic.

But i think its a topic worth debating and discussing. People need to be educated on things. Not everyone in the country thinks like everyone else. They all might have the knowledge as everyone else.

Not sure if youve noticed, but it always seems like a hush hush topic everywhere when it comes to politics.

Sad i think that censorship exists in places we normally dont feel censorship exists.

[Slapshotnerd]

so what are you saying?

you want us to debate it here? or just tellin us??

the problem is that people get so passionate about their views that they don't let anyone tell them otherwise. Although I have my own views on the candidates, if someone can tell me why the candidate they support better represents me than the candidate i currently support, then i'll switch how i feel. But most people resort to the same tactics as the candidates, taking cheap shots and talking about insignificant information than the stances that the candidates hold on key issues. Which is very frustrating.

[bugzy]

I personally wont get into the actual debate because i am still a novice on the key points. But i feel seeing others key points, would help my understand.

I still think its sad because it seems like we are picking from who's the least worse candiate.

[Slapshotnerd]

Key points for me:

bush wants to outlaw abortion
bush doesn't believe in international diplomacy, and spends alot on the military
bush gave alot of large tax cuts to big businesses and the upper 2% income earners in this country
Bush wants to constitutionally ban gay marriage
Bush wants to ban gays who are "open" from serving in the military
Bush supports drilling for oil in the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge

Kerry supports gun safety devices on all guns sold
Kerry supports acting multilaterally in international affairs, and doing things diplomatically through venues like the UN
Kerry wants to raise minimum wage and extend the amount of time the unemployed recieve benefits
Kerry supports clean air emissions standards

all of this information is from http://www.presidentmatch.com/

To me, bush stands for big businesses, protecting the wealth and assets of the wealthy, and pushing our military around the world to spread "democracy / freedom". Kerry stands for the common person who doesn't make $200k a year, maintaining / rebuilding alliances internationally so that we don't have to spend so much on our military, encouraging safety and checks on those who wish to purchase guns.

If you want to see how the leading third party candidate feels on major issues, the best way is to check this site:
http://www.votenader.org/issues

This will be my first presidential election, so my vote will go to the person who i feel best represents my views. Even if they don't have a chance in hell of winning. For the sole purpose that I want every vote that I cast to be one I believe in, and that I believe democracy best happens when everyone casts their own vote with the candidate they feel strongest in, not the person they feel will win. This isn't betting, it's voting.

[bugzy]

Id like to see points of views spread for not myself, but for others.

I can form my own views.

Honestly not even for most of california, but id like to see knowledge transfer to areas where normally they are close minded.

Normally California and NY and most of the larger states have population where people know whats going on.

I just think its idea for debates and arguements to exchange in a civilized manner.

[madajb]

Sensitive? I dunno about the vortex, but the regular participants in the political threads here are pretty thick skinned.
Of course, we're also fairly polite which helps things considerably.
-ajb

[Tom (aka Godzilla)]

Key points for me:

bush gave alot of large tax cuts to big businesses and the upper 2% income earners in this country.

Dude, the entire popluation got a tax cut. Some lower income people had their taxes reduced to zero. You're gonna vote for a guy who promises universal health care? How does he plan to pay for it? I don't care what he says in the debate, his plan is going to cost more money and that means higher taxes.

[paultakeda]

1. Lowering our taxes at the cost of increasing the national debt (which only a few short years ago was a surplus) does not a good policy make. It sure is a crowd-pleaser, though... but tell that to the future generation that'll have to pay for it.
2. Kerry's position is to KEEP middle and lower-income tax cuts. This is a non-issue. The issue is increasing taxes on the wealthy and on businesses that gross $200,000 annually. This is a sticky debate, and I myself tend to fall in line with the idea that we tried trickle-down economics before and it didn't work, but it's nice to know we're so forgetful of our own recent economic history as to accept it undera brand new package. My real position, however, is a flat tax.
3. The issue with healthcare and how to pay for a universal system. Let's ask Canada. Or Finland. It seems to work, maybe they know something we don't. We should at least explore the possibility and not dismiss it because healthcare interests tell you (and you swallow it without question) that it will cost you tax dollars.

Whenever a new idea or a different policy is proposed, we should welcome the opportunity for debate. Maybe it's a good idea, maybe it's a bad one. But there are too many interests that influence the policymakers; interests that want to do only one thing: maintain the status quo, it's what keeps them rich.

No one will contest that our dependency on oil is a bad one, yet just how slow are we moving towards freeing ourselves of this bad habit?
Why does the current administration restrict the purchase of cheaper prescription drugs from Canada? Is this not an attack on capitalism and the free market?

[Slapshotnerd]

Dude, the entire popluation got a tax cut. Some lower income people had their taxes reduced to zero. You're gonna vote for a guy who promises universal health care? How does he plan to pay for it? I don't care what he says in the debate, his plan is going to cost more money and that means higher taxes.

While he did give a tax cut across the board, he raised the spending of the government and went from a 2+ trillion dollar surplus to a 3+ trillion dollar deficit. And those who recieved the LARGEST tax cut were those who could afford to pay the most to help reduce that debt. But of course, since Bush and his Family are all very wealthy, might as well pat them on the back.

oops, didn't read Paul's post, but it said the same thing...

Lon - check out that presidentmatch.com site, and click on "compare". It will give you a run down of alot of major differences, and the views of the candidates.

[allizard]

1. Lowering our taxes at the cost of increasing the national debt (which only a few short years ago was a surplus) does not a good policy make. It sure is a crowd-pleaser, though... but tell that to the future generation that'll have to pay for it.

2. Kerry's position is to KEEP middle and lower-income tax cuts. This is a non-issue. The issue is increasing taxes on the wealthy and on businesses that gross $200,000 annually. This is a sticky debate, and I myself tend to fall in line with the idea that we tried trickle-down economics before and it didn't work, but it's nice to know we're so forgetful of our own recent economic history as to accept it undera brand new package. My real position, however, is a flat tax.


A lot of families I know make borderline $200k a year. I don't know how that can calulate as the top 2% of the wealthiest. But I do like the flat tax idea.


3. The issue with healthcare and how to pay for a universal system. Let's ask Canada. Or Finland. It seems to work, maybe they know something we don't. We should at least explore the possibility and not dismiss it because healthcare interests tell you (and you swallow it without question) that it will cost you tax dollars.

I don't think it worked that well. Our manager is a Canadian, and his mother passed away last year in Toronto thanks to the current healthcare system.

No one will contest that our dependency on oil is a bad one, yet just how slow are we moving towards freeing ourselves of this bad habit?
Why does the current administration restrict the purchase of cheaper prescription drugs from Canada? Is this not an attack on capitalism and the free market?

Can someone explain to me why are we not drilling our own oil again?

[Alan_One]

While he did give a tax cut across the board, he raised the spending of the government and went from a 2+ trillion dollar surplus to a 3+ trillion dollar deficit. And those who recieved the LARGEST tax cut were those who could afford to pay the most to help reduce that debt. But of course, since Bush and his Family are all very wealthy, might as well pat them on the back.

oops, didn't read Paul's post, but it said the same thing...

Lon - check out that presidentmatch.com site, and click on "compare". It will give you a run down of alot of major differences, and the views of the candidates.

Listen. Over the past weeks I've enjoyed participating in a slew of "discussions" where we (sometimes me) end up calling each other names and chest pounding. It usually starts out pretty amicably but then someone (sometimes me but mostly Monster 8V ; ) ) inevitably reduces the exchange to name calling. At first I was looking for someone to originally challenge my notions against bush - I am Anti-bush - but I soon found that most of us are just spouting the same canned shit we hear on mainstream news. Not only that, but I've also noticed that the memory of the general public (this forum included) is very very short term and unable to follow more than one issue at a time. Ignoring the implications of associated issues that are directly related to the original. My biggest beef w/ bush is his blatant favoritism towards the people that funded his family's rise to power and how it has effected me (and most of you) directly. I still recall that bush's popularity before 911 was the lowest of any president ever. I still recall that he was litigated into power by political favor. I still remember that he was not elected by the ideals of the system but by a perversion of it. Every independent poll shows Gore winning in every scenario. But because the right people were in the right place of power to make (or not make) the appropriate actions. All the bush supporters say "well that's the way the system works" but I'm sure they'd be singing a different tune if the roles were reversed.

I find I get far too bent out of shape about bush but I get way more bent when I get his canned rhetoric from his supporters. I wish for once that someone would step up and pose an argument that would anchor itself on something other than sound bites and blind conformance.

I'm not a Kerry supporter. I'm a bush Hater. So don't reply to me with negatives against Kerry. I don't care. How about you try and change my mind about bush?

[Alan_One]

A lot of families I know make borderline $200k a year. I don't know how that can calulate as the top 2% of the wealthiest. But I do like the flat tax idea.

Well then you know families a lot better off than the ones I know. Just because your landscape is pleasing doesn't mean the rest of the world shares it. The only thing you're telling me is that you don't care about those less well off than yourself.


I don't think it worked that well. Our manager is a Canadian, and his mother passed away last year in Toronto thanks to the current healthcare system.

Again, because someone in your landscape had a bad experience the system as a whole must be flawed? No one is suggesting a copy of Canada or Finland but I bet if we spent 200 billion dollars in our own back yard your landscape might change for the better as well.

Can someone explain to me why are we not drilling our own oil again?

Because the companies that do the exploring and removing of those possible oil resources (which are not many) aren't interested in preserving our lands or respecting the habitat. All they're interested in is making money. They aren't charitable or mindful of the consequences of their actions. their sight is short term and high dollar.

We can't hold back change but we can do it responsibly. I want my kids to have some of what I had when I was a little kid. Capitalism is great but it lacks mindful responsibility. We need to fundamentally change our notion of making money to include preserving our resources and our environment.

That's why I got so pissed when the first thing our president started talking about when he was "elected" was "clean coal" and opening up lands for oil exploration. If you can't see the direct correlation between those actions and our invasion of Iraq then I'm at a loss. You know the circumstances. And it makes me sick to think that he's using the deaths of so many Americans to further the favor of his backers.

[Spunkonsheets]

Alan, i just got to say, you are now my idol!

[paultakeda]

A lot of families I know make borderline $200k a year. I don't know how that can calulate as the top 2% of the wealthiest. But I do like the flat tax idea.


260 million people, out of which around 5 million earn over $200,000? I think that's correct.

A flat tax would be nice -- it is also, unfortunately, something the wealthy abhor, purely out of some ridiculous notion that since 40% of their income is 100 times that of 40% of someone else's, a flat tax is unfair.


I don't think it worked that well. Our manager is a Canadian, and his mother passed away last year in Toronto thanks to the current healthcare system.

Half our emergency rooms in the Los Angeles area are gone because of uninsured medical emergencies. Hospitals are committed to saving lives, period. But because of the number of uninsured that pass through the ER, they have had to close their doors.

Our system doesn't work so well, either.

A solution will be far more complex than just "universal healthcare" or any other slogan. But I'd like to explore all our options, including the ones that will cause a profit loss to the insurance and pharmaceutical industry.

Can someone explain to me why are we not drilling our own oil again?

At the current rate, our own oil won't last a generation. I'm glad the Air Force is exploring anti-matter (talk about long-term) and Ford and GM looking into hydrogen fuel cell technology while Toyota and Honda explore the stopgap we call the hybrid engine. I'm sad that it took this long to get to this point.

[Slapshotnerd]

I'm not a Kerry supporter. I'm a bush Hater. So don't reply to me with negatives against Kerry. I don't care. How about you try and change my mind about bush?

maybe you quoted the wrong person...

I'm not a Bush supporter at all. in fact, my preferences go anti-bush, best candidate for the job, then likely-to-do-a-good-job-and-enough-corporate-backing-to-actually-win-this-crazy-system-we-know-as-the-electoral-college aka kerry.

[Alan_One]

maybe you quoted the wrong person...

I'm not a Bush supporter at all. in fact, my preferences go anti-bush, best candidate for the job, then likely-to-do-a-good-job-and-enough-corporate-backing-to-actually-win-this-crazy-system-we-know-as-the-electoral-college aka kerry.

Sorry man, I wasn't trying to direct that at you. It was directed at those that were sure to pull out the anti Kerry slogans and quote my post.

[madajb]

I still recall that bush's popularity before 911 was the lowest of any president ever.

Except for G.H.W Bush, Nixon, and Carter.

I still remember that he was not elected by the ideals of the system but by a perversion of it.

It is unfortunate that the courts were involved, rather than the House (or is the Senate, I forget) as it should have been. But since the Republicans still held a majority, the results would hardly have been different.

-ajb

[madajb]

At the current rate, our own oil won't last a generation.
Something "they" have been saying since the last generation.
This is not to say that we should not design alternatives, but repeating old saws like that one do not help the issue.
-ajb
(Maybe we'll finally get some nucular power)

[madajb]

Alan, i just got to say, you are now my idol!
Thank You....thank you very much....
-ajb
(Oh..you meant the other one...? =) )

[Alan_One]

Alan, i just got to say, you are now my idol!

Thanks man. I appreciate the thought. But I'm not out to be anyones idol.

There are a few people on this forum who's opinions I hold in high regard. We don't always agree but that doesn't keep me from respecting them and their right to their opinion.

So as a break from the mud slinging i'd like to take this opportunity to thank the following people for being good sports and participating... in no particular order

madajb
godzilla
paultakeda
Slapshotnerd
allizard
mr_wrong
4pounder
SilverStone
bugzy
Firefly4322
creanium
URQ
KSpider
southOCgti
Anonymous
mike
mitssn
Satan4
Monster8V
PDVR6

If I left anyone out it was only because I didn't have a post readily available to copy your name from :)

After this is over we're all gonna have to suck it up and make the best of what we have.

[paultakeda]

Something "they" have been saying since the last generation.
This is not to say that we should not design alternatives, but repeating old saws like that one do not help the issue.
-ajb
(Maybe we'll finally get some nucular power)

Hey, now, that paragraph was longer than the first sentence!

[madajb]

Hey, now, that paragraph was longer than the first sentence!
Yeah, and I agree with the rest of it. =)
-ajb

[Alan_One]

Yeah, and I agree with the rest of it. =)
-ajb

article (http://socaleuro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1987)

for you two (Mad & PTK)

[Tom (aka Godzilla)]

I find I get far too bent out of shape about bush but I get way more bent when I get his canned rhetoric from his supporters. I wish for once that someone would step up and pose an argument that would anchor itself on something other than sound bites and blind conformance.

I was responding to canned statements with a canned statement. I have my feelings about the current tax situation and our government's current spending situation. I'm too busy/lazy/apathetic to spend time (I've already spent too much) outlining my beliefs on an internet forum and trying to persuade others. If you want to come over and sit down with a 12 pack and talk about, I'm game. We'll get a lot more accomplished in a much shorter period of time. And my fingers won't cramp up....

The thing about politics is you can take a single action, the tax cut for instance, and depending on what side of the aisle you're on, you're going to see it completely differently.

With that, I'm off the browse the NWF section. That's what the internet is really good for..... :D

[Alan_One]

I was responding to canned statements with a canned statement. I have my feelings about the current tax situation and our government's current spending situation. I'm too busy/lazy/apathetic to spend time (I've already spent too much) outlining my beliefs on an internet forum and trying to persuade others. If you want to come over and sit down with a 12 pack and talk about, I'm game. We'll get a lot more accomplished in a much shorter period of time. And my fingers won't cramp up....

The thing about politics is you can take a single action, the tax cut for instance, and depending on what side of the aisle you're on, you're going to see it completely differently.

With that, I'm off the browse the NWF section. That's what the internet is really good for..... :D

Yes, that and porn.

:tup:

[mr_wrong]

Except for G.H.W Bush, Nixon, and Carter.



-ajb

Funny you mention those three. Stick'em in a blender, and what pours out is our current president.. ;)


With that, I'm off the browse the NWF section. That's what the internet is really good for..... :D

Yep. Gotta love the "innernets" ;)