View Full Version : I just put a deposit down on this little sweetheart...
Fritz
04-25-2007, 03:33 PM
Springfield Armory, XD 45. The XD model is chambered for 9mm, .40, .45, and .357 SiG... I went with the .45 for it's heritage and legendary stopping power. I also went with the 4" barrel for concealability purposes, but didnt go for a compact or sub-compact because they were too small in my hand. I thought about the black/olive drab, but decided against it because I really like the black/black.
http://www.thearsenal.us/XD45.jpg
http://www.defensereview.com/springfieldarmory/Springfield%20Armory%20XD%20.45%20GAP%20Pistol_1.j pg
the black/olive drab w/5" barrel that i decided against
http://www.defensereview.com/springfieldarmory/Springfield%20Armory%20XD%20.45%20GAP%20Pistol_5.j pg
I'm buying it for $510, included in that price is everything you see in the case, to include the case. 2x 13 rnd magazines... that's right, 13x .45 rounds in one magazine +1 in the chamber, doubles the firepower of a standard 1911. A trigger lock and cable, a bore brush, a holster, a magazine loader, a dual magazine pouch, and a wrench.
details, and specifications here...
http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php
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ncttrnl
04-25-2007, 03:41 PM
We really are turning into a bunch of gun nuts on here ;)
veedubber7
04-25-2007, 03:42 PM
time to join the Michigan militia!
Fritz
04-25-2007, 03:48 PM
and, when i take my CCW class, 1 year of range time is included in the price.. about $175. whereas the range fee for a year by itself is $100, and the class goes anywhere from $100 - $250 depending on who/what agency is instructing it.
i'm excited. this pistol is the shit, and with a 4" barrel it'll be easy to conceal. i thought about getting the compact or the sub-compact, but they were too small in my hand. i also thought about getting the black/olive drab, it was $10 cheaper.
gest24
04-25-2007, 08:29 PM
Congrats on the purchase. I'm impressed by the XDs, they feel good for a plastic gun.
As for the range membership, awesome idea. I joined ASC when I bought my Sig and have since gone enough times to pay for my membership.
XD is great. Good choice.
easy shooting guns, but the 4" has more muzzle flip than I care for though.
4" in .45ACP is fun. I still have a mark on my finger from my .44MAG Redhawk from the range last month from the kick and its a 7 1/2" heavy gun.
Fritz
04-26-2007, 09:38 PM
i just brought it home a few hours ago. i bought some cheap cci ammo to burn through it, maybe on saturday. total cost with taxes, and purchase permit fees so far is $550.
the case that it comes with had a big white sticker on it, and written in bold black letters "Not legal in California"... so, that sucks.. somethiing i love about michigan, no bans, and no brady bill.
FunkTron
04-26-2007, 10:19 PM
We really are turning into a bunch of gun nuts on here ;)
nah....i'm just in the engineering department....and well....lately I would say that pretty much warrants carrying a grenade launcher. ;)
it's cali legal just not the mags. if you come back just don't bring the hi-caps back.... *cough* yeah...
Fritz
04-27-2007, 07:24 AM
it's cali legal just not the mags. if you come back just don't bring the hi-caps back.... *cough* yeah...
bummer, but that is good intel paul, thanks.
DTolo
04-27-2007, 07:42 AM
Sweet Piece Fritz. I can't wait to get my first. How would you rate that side by side with the Glock 17?
*edit* I guess it would be better compared to the Glock 21 since the 17 is only chambered in 9mm. Still I wouldn't mind hearing some comparison from the horses mouth :). Can't wait to hear about how it goes this weekend.
california has a list of guns that can be purchased new. It's on the DOJ site and is based on their drop-test requirements. Basically handguns have to be submitted for testing. As long as it passes the test it's good for a year. They have to be resubmitted for retest each year. Guns that are on that list including the 4" XD 45 is legal to purchase new in CA and even have shipped into cali by an out of state FFL to an in-state FFL.
However older handguns that are no longer on the list or never were on the list can be brought into the state if you're moving your primary residence to CA. Of course a lot of these rules do not apply to law enforcement.
current list of cali legal guns
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/
9mm is a nice cheap target round, decent stopping power
.45ACP is a very powerfull round, most likely will go completely through your target, thus not transfering its complete stopping power.
.45GAP I haven't shot, Its a more compact .45 round
.40 is a good inbetween that law enforcement uses, has more of a punch than the 9mm, but not the harsh kick of the .45 to help with muzzle climb and time to reaquire the target.
Fritz
04-27-2007, 05:16 PM
9mm is a nice cheap target round, decent stopping power
.45ACP is a very powerfull round, most likely will go completely through your target, thus not transfering its complete stopping power.
.45GAP I haven't shot, Its a more compact .45 round
.40 is a good inbetween that law enforcement uses, has more of a punch than the 9mm, but not the harsh kick of the .45 to help with muzzle climb and time to reaquire the target.
XD 45 + Federal Hydra-Shok .45 ACP = Dead Bad Guy
http://www.natchezss.com/images/mfgGroups/600.jpg
http://www.cchanphotography.com/guns/hydra-shock/images/dsc_1370.jpg
Fritz
04-27-2007, 07:36 PM
very nice :tup:
gest24
04-27-2007, 08:33 PM
Mike you forgot to add that 7.62 will take care of those home invaders in your neighbor's house from your house.
idrivea2002golf
04-27-2007, 08:41 PM
i take it those flintoids have been treating you nicely
Fritz
04-28-2007, 12:13 AM
i take it those flintoids have been treating you nicely
i've been having a great time here, and there's lots of nice people around.
this pistol is for the random shooters out there who think they can get away with it. i'm doing my part as a responsible, law-abiding citizen, and saying "No more VT's, Columbine's, malls, or fast food joints getting shot up"... if i'm ever around an incident like these, it will end, quickly.
"It's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have one."
idrivea2002golf
04-28-2007, 01:09 AM
i've been having a great time here, and there's lots of nice people around.
this pistol is for the random shooters out there who think they can get away with it. i'm doing my part as a responsible, law-abiding citizen, and saying "No more VT's, Columbine's, malls, or fast food joints getting shot up"... if i'm ever around an incident like these, it will end, quickly.
"It's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have one."
couldn't agree with you more on that one, but .45 caliber, isn't that a little excessive? i mean 'you're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off'
i would however urge you not to mention the CCW to many people. it is one of those things not everyone is comfortable with and not many will agree with your reasonings for having it.
ps i know that there are many nice people in flint. i also know that there are many devious people not just in flint but everywhere. I don't have a problem with the city, i know what a great city it used to be. i also know that the past 9ish years have been hell for the city with the relocation of the GM plants to Detroit and more recently out of the country. it is playing havoc with the economy and unfortunately the governor and the mayor are in a hard place with the poor funding as well as the weak economy of MI from all the corporations not only leaving but laying off.
It's good you enjoy it there i know that Mott has some good profs, i took my physics course there for transfer back to my college at the time.
Fritz
04-28-2007, 08:52 AM
you are wise, and absolutely right... i was trying to dress flint up a bit.. the fact of the matter is that the murder season is upon us, now that the weather has finally become warmer.
i've only told 4 people about me applying for a CCW, 3 of them are family, and the 4th is my best friend who i'll be going through the classes with. all trustworthy. i dont want it to be known that i carry.
from what i've heard from someone who has taken the classes, you are not allowed to show your weapon at all, either drawing it, or exposing it in it's concealed location. it's considered brandishing, brandishing = bad. i've also been told that if you do have to draw down on someone, that you have to kill them, otherwise it'll be considered assault with a deadly weapon, and attempted murder. i'll confirm or withdraw this in the next few weeks when i take the classes.
idrivea2002golf
04-28-2007, 10:18 AM
there's a retired cop that i work with who still carries... since he's a retired cop. i'll ask him a little about the CCW rules. he's a really cool guy and not at all shy about telling cop stories. although they all start with the phrase 'i haven't done this but i've heard...' i just smile and laugh b/c the story he's about to tell is something that he would do. beside the point, i don't know the rules but i'll ask. although it might be different if your retired PD since there are cases where it's life and death. i think that just having your CCW would carry different rules along the lines of what you are saying.
CCW would be nice here in Cali due to the area I work in (Santa Ana), be able to legaly carry a defense weapon being a law abiding citizen. From my understanding, Flint is apretty tough town.
I keep my Colt loaded .45ACP hydra shocks, tons of stopping power for a lower grain load (165) so recoil isn't terrible, and if I miss, secondary damage is hopefully minimal. compared to the nasty 240 grain hydra shocks for the .44mag (or the nasty 300 grain for big things)
this is next on my list, a Kel-Tec SU-16A, its .223, folds up nice for backpacking or storage, super light, and accepts any standard M16 magazine, stores two 10 rounders in the stock, all for under $600
http://www.kel-tec.com/images/big/su16A_01.jpg
Fritz
04-29-2007, 07:41 PM
that is a sweet rifle.
hehe i'm not a big fan of that keltec, but it's a good concept. built in bipod like the steyr scout.
hehe i'm not a big fan of that keltec, but it's a good concept. built in bipod like the steyr scout.
Any particular reason?
Fritz
04-29-2007, 08:22 PM
Sweet Piece Fritz. I can't wait to get my first. How would you rate that side by side with the Glock 17?
*edit* I guess it would be better compared to the Glock 21 since the 17 is only chambered in 9mm. Still I wouldn't mind hearing some comparison from the horses mouth :). Can't wait to hear about how it goes this weekend.
this morning my uncle and i shot 28 rounds a piece. the sights are great, they're 'snow man' type, so three white dots, 2 on the rear, one on the front sight post.. very accurate, the first 14 rounds i shot out of it were at a 10" paper plate from 20 yards.. had the majority of the rounds inside a 5" group, with the stragglers still inside the 10". i'm sure with more practice i'll be able to decrease my MOA. with 230 grain FMJ, there's not much flip, i expected it to be noticeable from what Paul posted. Sustained, accurate fire was not difficult to maintain. loud as fuck, my ears are ringing like mad and it's been 12 hours... my fault for not wearing hearing protection... won't do that again.
it's hard for me to compare it to a glock 21 because i've only fired that weapon once out at iron sights in oceanside.. i didnt like it, but that could because it was a finger-fucked rental.. it wasnt in very good condition, and it actually double fed and mis-fired several times.. which i thought was not possible with a glock, but whatever. the sights were not as easy to follow as these.. with a glock, when you charge the weapon the spring is only half compressed, and when you squeeze the trigger it gets fully compressed until it's tension is released.. with the XD models, when you charge the weapon, the spring is fully compressed.. also, it's integrated safeties are great, even though there are only 2. one is the grip safety design from 1911's and the other is the trigger safety like glocks have. both of them have to be depressed in order to fire the weapon. there is no de-cocking mechanism on the XD, however, it's not necessary, once you drop the mag and clear the chamber it is fine to leave the weapon in a ready status and not de-cock it. but if you want to de-cock it you can with a dummy bullet. i was given one by my arms dealer. the firing pin actually protrudes out the back of the slide as a way to indicate that you're weapon is ready to fire, and there's another indicator on top of the weapon by the ejector port that will be raised when there's a round in the chamber. for night time operations, this is a design that allows you to be able to tell by touch that you are ready to go.
the XD is made in croatia, and it is used by their military.. an interesting factoid.
Tom (aka Godzilla)
04-29-2007, 10:27 PM
Nice little handgun you got there. You're a big enough dude, I wouldn't worry about excessive recoil in a small package.
9mm is a nice cheap target round, decent stopping power
.45ACP is a very powerfull round, most likely will go completely through your target, thus not transfering its complete stopping power.
.45GAP I haven't shot, Its a more compact .45 round
.40 is a good inbetween that law enforcement uses, has more of a punch than the 9mm, but not the harsh kick of the .45 to help with muzzle climb and time to reaquire the target.
Where did you get that information?
I rate muzzle flip / recoil relative to other .45 in full length. I can control the XD45 well but I've been shooting a ton this past year. And like Tom said, you're not a small guy like me so muzzle flip will be less of an issue. Also ammo choice is a big part of it too. 230gr Remington JHPs snap nicely, but the CCI Blazer has probably the most kick for any 230gr non +p type round.
As to the keltec... it's flimsy and the bipod flexes way too much to be useful. For the money build a legal lightweight AR ;) not quite as compact but it'll be more accurate if you build it right.
Where did you get that information?
I've heard it from a few instructors, one of which I worked with and it makes good sense to me, alot also has to do with the round.
As far as the Kel-tec I kind of got the cheap flimsy feeling to. But the guy at turners said he owns one and its a great gun. I would be worried by this but they aren't on commision.
I wanted a Bushmaster, which was also in the rack, but in the great state of CA. , you can only get this one, with a fixed mag that you have to disassemble the gun to load 10 rounds in it. I've heard you can dremel out the bottom where a clip would go, and yank the guts of the fixed mag out and a conventional mag will sldie in, but thats far from legal in this state!
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/Images/AZC-C15RM4FT-insert.jpg
Tom (aka Godzilla)
04-30-2007, 08:41 AM
I've heard it from a few instructors, one of which I worked with and it makes good sense to me, alot also has to do with the round.
Interesting. I've done a fair amount of research into terminal ballistics, if you wanna chat it up sometime, let me know. What you stated is quite different than what I've found.
The basic as I was told, When the governemnt switched from .45ACP in the 80's to 9mm, staff was having to dump a clip into what ever was coming at them hopped up on drugs or adreniline.
.45ACP (although not for me since I'm 6'4 and 250 pounds) for a smaller person in a short barreled service weapon has a large punch, makes a bigger bang, and can kick, throwing off a person in the heat of battle to stay focused and reaquire the target where time is everything. And .45ACP has enough brass behind it to go completely through a person (ammo dependant) and not transfer its full force, or if you miss, cause more damage to something else.
This is where .40 is a good middle ground. not too heavy a round, not too light. Alot of law enforcement carries this caliber.
Personaly I like the .45ACP in my Combat commander, I feel that if the situation arises, that caliber with the right ammo will stop just about any threat.
dremelling out the bottom of the bushmaster is a felony, and turns it into an assault weapon. You can build completely california legal AR15s via off-list lower receivers and building it up to the limits of the law.
Basically you can have a pistol grip, detachable magazine so long as the magazine cannot be detached without a tool. A bullet is a tool. Go to calguns.net for more info on how to build a legal off-list lower (OLL)
.40 has more snap imo than 45acp and I don't mean by the overall energy. It's just a sharper recoil to me. Higher cylinder pressures out of the .40.
dremelling out the bottom of the bushmaster is a felony, and turns it into an assault weapon. You can build completely california legal AR15s via off-list lower receivers and building it up to the limits of the law.
Basically you can have a pistol grip, detachable magazine so long as the magazine cannot be detached without a tool. A bullet is a tool. Go to calguns.net for more info on how to build a legal off-list lower (OLL)
Yeah, im not into breaking the law is why I was considering the Kel-Tec. I will look up the site, thanks alot paul! :tup:
Fritz
04-30-2007, 11:12 AM
Interesting. I've done a fair amount of research into terminal ballistics, if you wanna chat it up sometime, let me know. What you stated is quite different than what I've found.
if you've got something tasty, please share it with the rest of the class. :tup:
Tom (aka Godzilla)
05-01-2007, 09:36 PM
if you've got something tasty, please share it with the rest of the class. :tup:
Aight, here goes:
Let me begin by saying that none of the commonly available handgun calibers possess sufficient energy to cause central nervous system(cns) disruption with shots to the upper torso. Handgun ammo, whether fired from a pistol or submachine gun, does it's damage but cutting, tearing, and stretching tissue. The resultant damage causes severe blood loss, and the target expires due to exsanguination (bleeds out). Rifle rounds, on the other hand, due possess sufficient energy. You can disrupt the spinal column enough, with an upper torso shot, to cause immediate cessation of hostile action.
Without getting too far off topic, I will implore all of you not to get caught up in the pseudo science of "stopping power" that is very popular in the gun mags. None of these handgun calibers possess "knockdown" power. It's simple physics. People fall down when they get shot because of conditioning, it's what we see on TV thousands of times. There's only two ways that have 100% chance of stopping a determined opponent; CNS disruption or exsanguination. Anything else is psychological and unreliable.
The terminal performance (what happens when the bullet strikes it's target) of the 9mm, .40 S&W, and the .45 are very similar....but when it comes to life or death the little things can make a huge difference.
The who, what, why, and where of how these different rounds came into being and why they were put into service could fill volumes.
The 9mm became popular because it allowed for huge capacities in a standard size handgun frame. I abhor the bullet because of the mentality behind it. Instead of teaching people to hit what they shoot, give them a whole bunch of ammo and maybe they'll get lucky.
After the FBI got their asses handed to them by a couple of bank robbers in Florida, the "Wonder 9" was quickly exposed for the inadequate bullet that it is. This led to the FBI fielding the 10mm.
The 10mm quickly proved to be too difficult a round for many females and some male agents to shoot. So they cut it down and reduced the velocity, and the .40 S&W was born.
The 40 S&W has very high chamber pressure, and as such has the most felt recoil of all three calibers.
The .45 is a big, slow moving round...compared to the 9mm and the .40 S&W. It does it's damage because it presents such a large frontal area to the tissue it's trying to destroy. One of it's perceived drawbacks is that it limits ammo capacity. But if you hit what you shoot at, that's not a problem, right? :D
The first rule of gunfighting is that the only rounds that count are the ones that hit.
Therefore, when choosing a potential combat handgun, I suggest the following:
1. Pick a frame design that is comfortable in your hand and when you come up from the holster, the sights are naturally level.
2. Try it out in all the calibers it's available in. Whichever caliber you can shoot the quickest and most accurately, that's the one you buy.
3. Practice, practice, practice. Dry fire at your TV at night. Practice mag changes with your eyes closed. Think of all the things that could go wrong, then train with those malfunctions.
Remember, the first one to score a hit is usually the one that wins the gun fight.
Oh, one more thing before I end this diatribe. The 9mm will more often OVER penetrate than any of the other rounds, as proven by the FBI standard penetration tests? Why? Before the round strikes skin, it usually travels through intermediate materials (clothing, glass, wood, metal, etc.). The 9mm will have the hollow point plug up, and since it's a smaller diameter and faster velocity, it will punch nice neat holes through things and keep on going. When fired through standard househould construction walls, the 9mm penetrated further than the .223/5.56mm. This is no bullshit.
Phew, my hands are tired. I haven't typed this much since college.
I love to eat a good steak, but don't need to know how the steer goes from pasture to plate!
Excelent write up and great info
shot placement shot placement shot placement. ;)
Gun control means never having to reload...
and
http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/rect-guncontrol-pd.jpg
Fritz
05-01-2007, 11:38 PM
excellent piece of work there tom, thanks a bunch. it brings to mind the subject of anatomy. since a pistol doesnt have the capability to provide enough shock force to the cns, what about the organs of the body? like the heart, liver, or lungs.. would deliberately aiming at these vitals be worth it, or is it best to shoot them in the cranium?
Tom (aka Godzilla)
05-02-2007, 01:43 PM
Head shots are tough. Draw a triangle from nipple to nipple to chin. That's where you want to hit. Lots of important stuff in there.
Tom you forgot, 1.25oz 12 ga slugs... how does that cause damage? :P
oh and how about 9mm vs .308 :P
my money is on .308 for over-penetration.
BTW, you can't get murder 1 for anything below the waist
Tom (aka Godzilla)
05-02-2007, 10:40 PM
oh and how about 9mm vs .308 :P
my money is on .308 for over-penetration.
You might be surprised. Alot of rifle rounds break up when they hit the body, whereas pistol rounds don't have enough energy to do so.
FunkTron
05-03-2007, 06:39 AM
but what if I want something with a little more kick.......you know.......for home protection?
http://www.corbins.com/images/gatl-7a.jpg
Fritz
05-03-2007, 08:36 AM
but what if I want something with a little more kick.......you know.......for home protection?
http://www.corbins.com/images/gatl-7a.jpg
Vrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
Fritz
05-03-2007, 08:48 AM
You might be surprised. Alot of rifle rounds break up when they hit the body, whereas pistol rounds don't have enough energy to do so.
the temporary wound cavity the .308 opens up in someone is brutal.
here is some information on what happens on the inside when a body is hit by a rifle bullet. shock force is deadly. this isnt the site i was looking for but it's close enough. i remember a site that went into great detail about how deadly a .308 round was because of the amount of damage it did..
http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zielwirkung/military_bullet_wound_patterns.html
lots more info out there.
hehe i've researched 308 ballistics before, that and I've also seen how well .308 holds together when shot into a solid object... it'll destroy rocks, concrete, and best of all will punch a nice hole in wooden objects. :D Ask me how I know that.
for reference... retrieved from shooting into a 14" diameter trunk (already cut down) eucalyptus
.45acp, .308, and 1oz 12ga slug.
http://cchanphotography.com/guns/smushed.jpg
Fritz
05-03-2007, 11:40 AM
the lead in your .308 emptied out.. if that had been a person you shot, the bullet yaw and flip would have thrown those fragments out causing them to cut holes into the membrane of the temporary wound cavity, thereby causing severe internal bleeding, compounded by the fact that whatever organ(s) you hit got shredded as well..
Doug242ti
05-07-2007, 09:24 PM
You might want to look into some guy in the midwest that does trigger jobs and the such on XD's. I shot some guys XD at the range that had the work done on it (wish I could remember who it was) and it was NICE! Way nicer than they are out of the box.
http://www.pbase.com/dkauer744/image/46322050.jpg
/\ /\ /\ my springer ;-)
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