Should we be in Iraq?

[bugzy]

Should we be in Iraq?

[GTiGirl]

Very interesting...

[slowjet]

Heeeeeeeeeellllllllll nooo!!! Not only "terrorists" hate us, but the surrounding folks as well. Going to these folks back yards and breaking their toys cuz they looked at us wrong and told us off is really startin to get old.

[mr_wrong]

Never did. Never will. The arrogance of this administration leading up to the rush to invade was astounding:

"I believe demolishing Husseins military power, and
liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk" Defense Policy
board member Ken Adelman, 2/13/02.

"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein
now has weapons of mass destruction" Vice President
Dick Cheney, 8/26/02

"We do know that Saddam is actively pursuing a nuclear
weapon" National Security Advisor Condoleeza Rice,
9/10/02

"It is not knowable how long that conflict would last.
It could last, you know, six days, six weeks. I doubt
six months" Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld,
2/7/03

"My belief is we will be greeted as liberators."
--Cheney, 3/16/03

"We're dealing with a country that can really finance
it's own reconstruction, and relatively soon" Deputy
Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, 3/27/03

"We know where (the weapons) are. They're in the area
around Tikrit and Baghdad and East, West, North, and
South somewhat." --Rumsfeld, 3/30/03

"Iraq will not require sustained aid." O.M.B. Director
Mitch Daniels, 3/28/03

"Major combat operations have ended." President George
W. Bush, 5/1/03.

"A year from now I'd be surprised if there's not some
grand square in Baghdad that is named after President
Bush." Former Pentagon Advisor Richard Perle, 9/22/03.


Oh and since this will get heated- save all the Michael Moore crap that's so popular with certain members here.

[SoCal_GLI]

Heeeeeeeeeellllllllll nooo!!! Not only "terrorists" hate us, but the surrounding folks as well. Going to these folks back yards and breaking their toys cuz they looked at us wrong and told us off is really startin to get old.


if cutting someones head off and killing innocent bystander with car bombs is what you consider looking at us wrong, then you have other issues you need to deal with

[OCbuiltGTI]

I think the reasons we went into Iraq were unfounded, but now that we're there leaving it be would be irresposible. We are now forced to stick with it in order to secure the nation.

[slowjet]

if cutting someones head off and killing innocent bystander with car bombs is what you consider looking at us wrong, then you have other issues you need to deal with


You obviously know nothing of what goes on there rather than what you see on TV. So dont even open your mouth. I wuz refering to what started this whole freakin endless endeavor. http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/sly.gif

[Monster8V]

Oh and since this will get heated- save all the Michael Moore crap that's so popular with certain members here.


if certain other members could actually post factually and not quoting Michale Moore's klan, then they wouldnt keep throwing it back in your face all day long.

Reminder to self, this is a blue state with a bunch of fucked up people who do not represent the main stream. Ahh, thats better. :tup:

[Monster8V]

You obviously know nothing of what goes on there rather than what you see on TV. So dont even open your mouth. I wuz refering to what started this whole freakin endless endeavor. http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/sly.gif


Straight up STFU.
SocalGLi was over there already. I trhink he might have a clue. Show some respect.

[slowjet]

Straight up STFU.
SocalGLi was over there already. I trhink he might have a clue. Show some respect.

Another one who obviously does not know me. And where is exactly over there? For all im concerned, he was probably "in the rear with the gear." When you fight and work beside Ta** Fo*** ** in Baghdad International airport, i think i know what im talking about. Be careful on who you try to criticise next time. http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/sly.gif

[01 JTI]

if cutting someones head off and killing innocent bystander with car bombs is what you consider looking at us wrong, then you have other issues you need to deal withummm... didn't they start cutting off heads and car-bombing AFTER we went into their backyard and broke their toys? On a side note, Bush was talking about how we should support the US troops in Iraq fighting off the terrorists... his veterans day speech... anyway, I didn't know there were terrorists in Iraq. I thought those were people who just got pissed off that some big bully came into their country and was trying to do something about it. Iono, that's just what I think. And I agree that it's impossible to pull out of Iraq now that we've gone in and stirred things up. But I don't agree with HOW the administration is going about trying to establish some sort of government. And barely over 50% is hardly mainstream. Damn republicans have to stop talking about a mandate.

interesting video clip:
http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~eminh3m/bush.wmv

[SoCal_GLI]

You obviously know nothing of what goes on there rather than what you see on TV. So dont even open your mouth. I wuz refering to what started this whole freakin endless endeavor. http://www.vwvortex.com/vwbb/sly.gif


you obviously have no idea who i am, cause if you did, you'd know that i have been there twice, and want to go back so i can help my fellow marines

[SoCal_GLI]

ummm... didn't they start cutting off heads and car-bombing AFTER we went into their backyard and broke their toys? On a side note, Bush was talking about how we should support the US troops in Iraq fighting off the terrorists... his veterans day speech... anyway, I didn't know there were terrorists in Iraq. I thought those were people who just got pissed off that some big bully came into their country and was trying to do something about it. Iono, that's just what I think. And I agree that it's impossible to pull out of Iraq now that we've gone in and stirred things up. But I don't agree with HOW the administration is going about trying to establish some sort of government. And barely over 50% is hardly mainstream. Damn republicans have to stop talking about a mandate.

interesting video clip:
http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~eminh3m/bush.wmv


ummm....car bombings have been an ongoing problem since the mid 70's....

[Tom (aka Godzilla)]

Everyone back off the personal attacks a little bit. Each person on this board has a different opinon, viewpoint and perspective. Each individual has their own unique experiences that help to form their opinions. We need to respect that. A disagreement between two viewpoints does not mean one is 'stupid'. If you want to post something that is contrary to someone else's statement, do it in a manner that does include personal insults or attacks.

Obviously, the Iraq topic is a heated one. From the beginning, I thought we should have gone in and nothing has changed my mind about that. Much of my opinion is based on the strategic significance of Iraq in the current and future Middle East conflicts, and Iraq's continued threat to Middle East stability which significantly threatened the global oil supply. The WMD issue (when we find them) is icing on the cake, nothing more.

[slowjet]

you obviously have no idea who i am, cause if you did, you'd know that i have been there twice, and want to go back so i can help my fellow marines


Then you know what im talking about. So quit being such an asshole. BTW, props goes to the Army for the mojarity of the ass kicking up front and personal with these Iraqi folks. Then again, we are all a freakin team and need each other.

EDIT: Props goes to them folks that entered the Airport right after the bombings in 03'. I would never hesitate to help out a fellow marine, soldier, airmen, or seaman out there right now.

[01 JTI]

ummm....car bombings have been an ongoing problem since the mid 70's....
... so why didn't we go into iraq in the mid 70's? And what about the cutting off heads... has that been going on since the mid 70's? I'm not trying to be a smartass. I really want to know.

[Tom (aka Godzilla)]

ummm... didn't they start cutting off heads and car-bombing AFTER we went into their backyard and broke their toys?

Car bombings and beheadings have been a staple of Islamic fundamentelist terrorists for some time, long before this current conflict. Beirut, Khobar Towers, the first attack on the World Trade Center, the North African Embassies just to name a few.

I didn't know there were terrorists in Iraq.
Al-Zarqawi is a Jordanian who's group has proclaimed it's allegiance to Al Qaeda and Bin Laden. His group based it's operations in Fallujah and is reponsible for most, if not all, of the hostage beheadings. Before the invasion, Hussein was a outspoken supporter of terrorism, going so far as to pay the surviving families of suicide bombers. The terrorist wanted for masterminding the Achille Lauro hijacking, Abu Abbas, was captured in Baghdad in April 2003 by U.S troops. He had been given free passage to live in Iraq by Saddam Hussein.

[SoCal_GLI]

Then you know what im talking about. So quit being such an asshole. BTW, props goes to the Army for the mojarity of the ass kicking.


exactly how am i being an asshole?

you made some comments and i retorted, i know more about what is and has been going on than 9/10's of the people on this board.

and honestly how can you say the army is doing the majority of the ass kicking? everytime i turn on the news and see the battle in falluja all i see is Marines doing the building sweeps (those digital cammies you keep seeing on the news are strictly a Marine uniform)

[slowjet]

I edited my post. One team, one fight. We all in this shit together. BTW, what you see on TV is totally not what you see on the field, or at least i didn't see many marines when i was there April of '03.

[01 JTI]

people talking about politics is like 2 brick walls yelling at each other... kind of like talking about religion.

[slowjet]

lol.... nice anology.

[Tom (aka Godzilla)]

The Army has it's AO and the Marine's have theirs. It just depends on where the cameras happen to be pointing that day.

[Anonymous]

Everyone back off the personal attacks a little bit. Each person on this board has a different opinon, viewpoint and perspective. Each individual has their own unique experiences that help to form their opinions. We need to respect that. A disagreement between two viewpoints does not mean one is 'stupid'. If you want to post something that is contrary to someone else's statement, do it in a manner that does include personal insults or attacks.

:tup:

Obviously, the Iraq topic is a heated one. From the beginning, I thought we should have gone in and nothing has changed my mind about that. Much of my opinion is based on the strategic significance of Iraq in the current and future Middle East conflicts, and Iraq's continued threat to Middle East stability which significantly threatened the global oil supply. The WMD issue (when we find them) is icing on the cake, nothing more.

Do you believe that we were mislead into the war? Would the President been given the "authority to use force" if he stated the reasons for your opinion as reasons to go to war? I think your reasons are a big part of why we invaded Iraq, I don't agree though, that these are reasons to go to war, especially when the reason we were given was "imminent threat". A good documentary to watch is "Uncovered: The Whole Truth About the Iraq War".

Do you believe that the war has been handle well? Were enough troops sent? Were troops sent without the equipment they needed? What are your feelings on Stop-Loss? How do you feel about private contractors in Iraq?

[madajb]

or at least i didn't see many marines when i was there April of '03.
Hey, you gotta be nice to the Marines, it was their birthday yesterday.
They're old now. =)
-ajb

[SoCal_GLI]

I edited my post. One team, one fight. We all in this shit together. BTW, what you see on TV is totally not what you see on the field, or at least i didn't see many marines when i was there April of '03.

during the war the marines and army were fighting in different parts of the country. they seem to be working side by side now, and i totally agree that we are there as a force of one.

[SoCal_GLI]

Hey, you gotta be nice to the Marines, it was their birthday yesterday.
They're old now. =)
-ajb


Ahhhhh.....you remembered :tup:

[PDVR6]

Reminder to self, this is a blue state with a bunch of fucked up people who do not represent the main stream. Ahh, thats better. :tup:

You could always move to one of those small red states, so that your partisanship will be more "at home."

Say, hasnt this topic been covered over, and over, and over again?

[mr_wrong]

You could always move to one of those small red states, so that your partisanship will be more "at home."



We could always set-up a "Sean Meze relocation fund" ;) I could kick in a few of my frequent flyer miles :D

[Monster8V]

Its
Shawn meze. ;)

Ill stick it out here, I like watching you bitches squirm!

[A1pocketrocket]

or you could send him up here to Orange County, you know...behind the big scary Orange Curtain.

[paultakeda]

I do not condone unilateral military action save when evidence overwhelmingly points to imminent danger.

This was the condition on which Congress gave President Bush the authority to invade Iraq, which he promptly used to invade, claiming imminent threat though all evidence (even back then) pointed to no such thing.

I condemn Congress for granting the president unilateral powers and refusing to take the blame for doing so. A commander-in-chief is only a commander-in-chief by the grace of Congress.

I condemn President Bush for using the powers granted by Congress to pursue what I believe to be a politico-economic agenda unrelated to the pursuit of al-Qaeda (I do not care if Iraq formerly had relations with bin Laden, I care about where al-Qaeda is today, not where it was a few years ago).

I respect the military whose commanders protested to President Bush's plans to invade Iraq, and agree with their assessment that though sufficient to win the invasion, the force assembled was too small to win the peace. I regret the administration ignored the military's advice on the matter, and the subsequent hardship our soldiers have endured and continue to endure because of it.

The short of it: We should not have gone in. When we did, we shold have done so with overwhelming force and a clear plan on pacification, reorganization and rebuilding of infrastructure. Should we leave now? We can't. Not right now. That would be political suicide, nor would it accomplish any of our goals. We're stuck, just like Vietnam. Without the cooperation of the local population in pacifying the country (and I do not mean its political leaders in our back pocket), we're going to be in trouble for quite some time.

[Alan_One]

Car bombings and beheadings have been a staple of Islamic fundamentelist terrorists for some time, long before this current conflict. Beirut, Khobar Towers, the first attack on the World Trade Center, the North African Embassies just to name a few.


Al-Zarqawi is a Jordanian who's group has proclaimed it's allegiance to Al Qaeda and Bin Laden. His group based it's operations in Fallujah and is reponsible for most, if not all, of the hostage beheadings. Before the invasion, Hussein was a outspoken supporter of terrorism, going so far as to pay the surviving families of suicide bombers. The terrorist wanted for masterminding the Achille Lauro hijacking, Abu Abbas, was captured in Baghdad in April 2003 by U.S troops. He had been given free passage to live in Iraq by Saddam Hussein.

All true statements.

Also, car bombings were not an issue in Iraq untill the US occupation. The people carrying out those bombings don't care about the Iraqui people. Those people (foreign terrorists) are there because we are there. We basically sat down in their neighborhood and gave them a target close to home. The "insurgents" in iraq are not the iraqui people (for the most part).

We went to iraq with poor planning, Too few resources, and under suspicious circumstances. (I can expand on these if there is some doubt)

We're there now. We can't just pull out and leave more instability in that region. I don't think we should have been there in the first place.

To all those people that use beheadings and imprisonments as a "backup" reason for us to have removed hussein I say SAUDI ARABIA.

To all of those that say the UN sanctions were not working I say NO WMD's

The UN is the right way to move forward. Change is slow. You can't force people to fight for their own rights. You can't go around deposing people because you want to. When you do you only cause more chaos.

If you decide to respond to this post please do so with quantifyable information that we can debate constructively. I will delete any posts that don't conform.

Sucks huh? But isn't that the American way under bush?

[PDVR6]

or you could send him up here to Orange County, you know...behind the big scary Orange Curtain.

First he'd need an escalade, then he would be eligible to live behind the curtain.

[bugzy]

The short of it: We should not have gone in. When we did, we shold have done so with overwhelming force and a clear plan on pacification, reorganization and rebuilding of infrastructure. Should we leave now? We can't. Not right now. That would be political suicide, nor would it accomplish any of our goals. We're stuck, just like Vietnam. Without the cooperation of the local population in pacifying the country (and I do not mean its political leaders in our back pocket), we're going to be in trouble for quite some time.

i agree ...

[madajb]

Personally, I think the question is irrelevant.
We're there now, that's what matters.
-ajb

[bugzy]

Personally, I think the question is irrelevant.
We're there now, that's what matters.
-ajb
yup ... but you know how history works ... gotta learn from our mistakes

and the question should be ... what should we do now, now that we are there
how will this effect the worlds view of the US ... and effect on our trade with the rest of the world ... etc etc

[madajb]

yup ... but you know how history works ... gotta learn from our mistakes

Heh, mankind has done a pretty piss poor job of that so far.
=)
-ajb

[bugzy]

absolutely ... but i am not mankind ... i am lonkind ;)

[Alan_One]

Personally, I think the question is irrelevant.
We're there now, that's what matters.
-ajb

:confused:

Any question that allows for an expression of opinion is not irrelevant. That would make all polls irrelevant.

You slippin?

How come we're always picking on the Polish?

[4pounder]

:confused:

Any question that allows for an expression of opinion is not irrelevant. That would make all polls irrelevant.

You slippin?

How come we're always picking on the Polish?

After this election, polls are irrelevant, especially exit polls.

Also, I'm with the other Alan. Now it's not whether we should be there, but the fact that we are there, and for better or worse we're needed there, at least until Iraq can have a stable government and police force. Leaving Iraq now would lead to a massacre of the people there that want to make it work. No w we have to be there.

And lastly, the Polish? Hilarious dude :tup: :)

[H2ovwdrvr]

I know there are people here who fought there and they mostly have a decent idea of what is going on.

But my question to you who here has had there family there friends etc live under a dictatorship like saddams I can truely say I have known lots of people who have gone through the horrors these people have. I have known many iraqis who have had many memebers of there familied killed by huiessein's thugs one guy I knew had 15 members of his family killed because they are christian. One of my best friends throughout elementry and junior high was from lebanon his family had to leave because of the terrorists being paid off by huesein and his men.
You are talking about a man who paid the families of terrorists for killing Americans and Christians

Huisessein will go amongst the hitlers of the world when we look back on this he was a truely evil man either close to hitler or worse he was just looking for the oppertunity to start world war 3.

I have had friends and family who have lived in east germany until you see what people go through under horror like this you will not understand it is less than 1% that are against us over there the news just focuses on these horrible people.

Oh and for those of you who think I am just a war monger then you don't know where I come from my grandfather was supposed to go to a concintration camp for not being willing to fight in world war 2 for the germans so I am not pro war unless it is for the freedom of a people

[creanium]

http://forum.goregasm.com/images/smilies/horse.gif

[Alan_One]

After this election, polls are irrelevant, especially exit polls.

Also, I'm with the other Alan. Now it's not whether we should be there, but the fact that we are there, and for better or worse we're needed there, at least until Iraq can have a stable government and police force. Leaving Iraq now would lead to a massacre of the people there that want to make it work. No w we have to be there.

And lastly, the Polish? Hilarious dude :tup: :)

But aren't polls how we measure popular opinion? Isn't this for the people by the people? I never said we shouldn't be there. But when you look at the historical record of modern war (post Korea) the people and their opinion matter. If you leave it to the generals we'll always be at war. And who are we kidding? This war isn't for THEM, It's for US.

If we didn't have an interest do you think we'd be there?

As for the argument about leaving them with a stable government and police force; Do you really think that any government election overseen by the US is going to have any legitimacy in the eyes of the Iraqui people?

Do you remember the Shaw of Iran?

[Firefly4322]

We no longer have a choice. Wether we needed to be there or not in the first place is now irrelevant. We need to do it right this time and finish what we started.

[slowjet]

http://forum.goregasm.com/images/smilies/horse.gif

You gotta show a puddle of glue now cuz that's where this subject is. ;)

[front9]

All this "it doesn't matter if we should have gone in or not, it only matters what we do now that we're there" is complete BS.

It's such an american way of thought. Short attention span syndrom.

Let's say we were neighbors and I accused you of planning to kill my dog and destroy my lawn with chemical fertilizers. I approached the neighborhood organization and said that without a doubt you had these chemicals, I saw you with these chemicals and knew that they were not legal to pocess and you imported them from Mexico or a country with less regulated chemical crop use.

For some reason the neighborhood organization grants me the power to go in with all my family alongside and destroy YOUR home, kill YOUR dog when it tried to protect YOUR property, and tear up YOUR lawn in the process.

Now, after running you out of your house destroying all your property and looking for the chemicals I supposedly, without a doubt, knew you had, I was unable to find anything at all that proved my suspiscions of you.

At this point you are on the run, with my family still after you, I've taken over your house and chosen a family member of my own to live there, would you still say that it doesn't matter "why" I ran you out of your home, only "what" myself and the neighborhood organization does about it later.
Hell NO you would probably sue me and have all the legal rights on your side. There was no evidence or actual items that I claimed you had, that I was worried would do me and my family harm, and now you are homeless and on the run, with a dead dog, and a tore up house.

I would probably be fined and imprisoned, and it would matter very much that I went to "war" based on evidence that I stated as fact, which turned out to completely baseless. It would also come out that I KNEW there were really no chemicals, I just didn't like you and wanted access to your new pool, so I made up all this "evidence".

I think that would matter.

-------------

You're right though, we can't just cut and run, we need to clean up our mess, but you would not leave the reconstruction of your house and yard to the person that ran you out and tore it up. I would be in jail and an intermediary would have to fix the mess.

---------------

Leaving GW Bush to fix something he directly broke would be like letting the bull in the china shop superglue all the plates back together.

-------------

We need that lying, self opprotunist out of office.
IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH!

Funny How Clinton almost got impeached for getting a BJ and not telling us he did, and Bush can invade a country, oust it's leader, and put in a puppet regime, all under false pretenses and scare tactics, and he gets re-elected.

-------------

I don't so much blame Bush (most politicians have a certain degree of corruption and ineptness) I am just dissappointed with my fellow citizens and their ability to be misled and lied to and eat it up like it was birthday cake.

[madajb]

You're...14 days too late.
Thanks for playing though.
-ajb

[SoCal_GLI]

All this "it doesn't matter if we should have gone in or not, it only matters what we do now that we're there" is complete BS.

It's such an american way of thought. Short attention span syndrom.

Let's say we were neighbors and I accused you of planning to kill my dog and destroy my lawn with chemical fertilizers. I approached the neighborhood organization and said that without a doubt you had these chemicals, I saw you with these chemicals and knew that they were not legal to pocess and you imported them from Mexico or a country with less regulated chemical crop use.

For some reason the neighborhood organization grants me the power to go in with all my family alongside and destroy YOUR home, kill YOUR dog when it tried to protect YOUR property, and tear up YOUR lawn in the process.

Now, after running you out of your house destroying all your property and looking for the chemicals I supposedly, without a doubt, knew you had, I was unable to find anything at all that proved my suspiscions of you.

At this point you are on the run, with my family still after you, I've taken over your house and chosen a family member of my own to live there, would you still say that it doesn't matter "why" I ran you out of your home, only "what" myself and the neighborhood organization does about it later.
Hell NO you would probably sue me and have all the legal rights on your side. There was no evidence or actual items that I claimed you had, that I was worried would do me and my family harm, and now you are homeless and on the run, with a dead dog, and a tore up house.

I would probably be fined and imprisoned, and it would matter very much that I went to "war" based on evidence that I stated as fact, which turned out to completely baseless. It would also come out that I KNEW there were really no chemicals, I just didn't like you and wanted access to your new pool, so I made up all this "evidence".

I think that would matter.

-------------

You're right though, we can't just cut and run, we need to clean up our mess, but you would not leave the reconstruction of your house and yard to the person that ran you out and tore it up. I would be in jail and an intermediary would have to fix the mess.

---------------

Leaving GW Bush to fix something he directly broke would be like letting the bull in the china shop superglue all the plates back together.

-------------

We need that lying, self opprotunist out of office.
IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH!

Funny How Clinton almost got impeached for getting a BJ and not telling us he did, and Bush can invade a country, oust it's leader, and put in a puppet regime, all under false pretenses and scare tactics, and he gets re-elected.

-------------

I don't so much blame Bush (most politicians have a certain degree of corruption and ineptness) I am just dissappointed with my fellow citizens and their ability to be misled and lied to and eat it up like it was birthday cake.



cause i don't feel like keeping my snide comments up, and start another pissing contest

but i will say this....if the circumstances were in fact how you describe, then what you have said does in fact make sence, BUT none of your facts have a base, most of them are stipulations and media induced not to mention they seem to be michael moore fueled....(i know that alot of you believed what you saw in his "documentaries" but some of you know that they were twisted to get his views to the mainstream)

[front9]

cause i don't feel like keeping my snide comments up, and start another pissing contest

but i will say this....if the circumstances were in fact how you describe, then what you have said does in fact make sence, BUT none of your facts have a base, most of them are stipulations and media induced not to mention they seem to be michael moore fueled....(i know that alot of you believed what you saw in his "documentaries" but some of you know that they were twisted to get his views to the mainstream)


Wow, how can you say that none of my facts have any base, when the GWB handpicked commission came to the same conclusion that:

there were NO WMD's, and that the sanctions had been working to eliminate his ability to produce them. (btw, not only the commission came up with these results, but also the thousands of troops that have been over there trying to find them.)

there was no link between Saddam and the events of 9/11.

the real connection to Bin Laden was between the Saudis, and his camps in Afghanistan. (of which it is fact that the Saudis were allowed to exit this country when even no US citizen was allowed to board a plane)

(the part about the pool and it's comparison to the oil theres IS my own interpretation, but anyone who can't admit that a president who's family made their money in oil and seeing as how with our current state of consumption, that oil is the most important resource on the planet, how maybe, just maybe, all we wanted was a US friendly government there, like we have with the saudis, so we can keep the almighty gas pump price low, among other things)

Oh, and btw, I've never even seen Fahrenheit 9/11 the movie.

These are all logical conclusion based on being an informed citizen with more outlets to gain information from than the mass media blitz shoved down our throats 24/7, and the Presidents own agenda disguised as legitimate findings.

I mean come on, you can only avoid the facts so much. The same people that led us to war are the ones that in the first few months of W Bush's presidency held conferences in which they were quoted as saying Saddam was not a threat and did not poccess the very weapons that were the primary reason congress granted him permission to go to war over.

I wish the republican, right wing, conservative (whatever label fits you most) would stop clinging to what the president does and says as the best course of action, just for the sake that they can remain republican, right wing, or conservative.

Honestly, people need to open their eyes and see that a deliberate wool was pulled over them, and just because you can see that Bush lied and misled us, doesn't mean your not a good republican, or soldier.

Bush has seen some of the most prominent republicans, resign, quit, or get fired under his tenure. These are people that have served under every president since reagan or carter, and yet disagree with the president so much as to leave their job over this.

I can see that being military personel, you might not want to admit that we took the wrong course of action and our troops were sent to fight a war that might not have been directed at the right parties.

No one would want to admit that after years of training and service that have instilled pride in your position and duty, that some over-privileged presidents son, who shirked his own military obligations, would have the authority to send our sons and daughters to fight a war with the presidents own political and financial agendas in mind.

The whole war beginning to end was handled poorly by the uppermost levels, even when more experienced people, Military people, voiced reservations about how the war was being fought.

The whole "shock and awe" tactic used only seemed good for the media coverage. They didn't secure the supply chain and this is a cause for many of the first pow's and especially for the female supply personel that was caught and later found.

claiming "mission accomplished" for the sake of the media and himself, when the majority of the war and the casualties have occured after this "historic" carrier landing and speech.

I am, as I'm sure everyone, those for and against the war, are supporting our troops and hope that they have all the gear and tools needed to win this one with the least amount of casualties, and If you need to cling to a certain degree of the utmost righteousness while we are there, to get the job done, then so be it. But someday you'll need to learn from the mistakes of our inept leaders.

edit: ( oh, and notice there are no snide comments and no trickle of a pissing contest, thanks)

[SoCal_GLI]

when did Bush lie? (you can't put the blame on Bush by calling him a liar, when in fact he was responding to intelligence recieved from other countries inteligence groups)

as far as this war being about oil....there may be an interest in oil but going to iraq is not and has never been the reason

as far as the comment about Bush being an oil baron and only interested in lining his pockets with more oil money is a ludicris statement, there interest in middle eastern oil long before either of the Bush's were in office

you do make some good points, but i still feel that they are biased, i don't in any way think bush is among one our great leaders, but i think given the circumstances of what he was forwarded from the previous administration and some of the blows we have taken as a country he has done a good job, yes he hasn't been perfect, but i still feel he is more of a patriot then Kerry could ever be.

[Phalcon_Mojo]

Hey, you gotta be nice to the Marines, it was their birthday yesterday.
They're old now. =)
-ajb

:)

[front9]

when did Bush lie? (you can't put the blame on Bush by calling him a liar, when in fact he was responding to intelligence recieved from other countries inteligence groups)

as far as this war being about oil....there may be an interest in oil but going to iraq is not and has never been the reason

as far as the comment about Bush being an oil baron and only interested in lining his pockets with more oil money is a ludicris statement, there interest in middle eastern oil long before either of the Bush's were in office

you do make some good points, but i still feel that they are biased, i don't in any way think bush is among one our great leaders, but i think given the circumstances of what he was forwarded from the previous administration and some of the blows we have taken as a country he has done a good job, yes he hasn't been perfect, but i still feel he is more of a patriot then Kerry could ever be.

when did Bush lie? (you can't put the blame on Bush by calling him a liar, when in fact he was responding to intelligence recieved from other countries inteligence groups)

Actually there are people that were involved in the meetings Bush had post 9/11, that have gone on record (after their resignation and or termination) that have stated Bush pretty much told his people that he WANTED a connection between 9/11 and saddam to be found, and that's what he wanted them to come back with.
-As far as other countries intelligence being taken into account, it all had to filter through our government before it became public, and, I'm sure more emphasis would be put on our own governments intel, than other governments.

as far as this war being about oil....there may be an interest in oil but going to iraq is not and has never been the reason
-look up a little something called the "Aqaba Pipeline" and see just how far back the iraq - US oil connection goes and how somewhat sinister it all seems. Since the pipeline deal fell through, I feel that we have been pretty much waiting for a chance to go in there.

as far as the comment about Bush being an oil baron and only interested in lining his pockets with more oil money is a ludicris statement, there interest in middle eastern oil long before either of the Bush's were in office
- I don't think that it's purely for the lining of his pockets. the oil game goes much deeper than just one mans interest. if he can provide cheaper fuel all his corporate manufacturing interests are pleased, in fact everyone benefits, all the way down to you and I filling our tanks at the pumps, but at what cost to people throughout the world.

but i still feel he is more of a patriot then Kerry could ever be.
- now this one i just don't get at all. kerry served in vietnam under fire and was a highly decorated vet. upon his return to the states he made it his mission, even though it was not the "popular" route to go through, especially if he had political aspirations, to bring an end to the vietnam war and not loose anymore of our boys in a war that history has shown to be one of our countries major blunders. you should really do some unbiased research of this guy kerry, i didn't really like him at first, but the more i found out, the more i realized he's a pretty upstanding kinda guy
Whereas on the other had, bush got cushy national guard duty and even shirked what little responsibility he had there, like not even making time for duty or even his medical examinations. Just a priviledged little kid, taking advantage of his father's and family's positions.

thanks for the replies. i like the unheated intelligent conversations with a differing opinion. :tup:

[SoCal_GLI]

my patriotism comment had to do with the fact that he is in the communist hero museum for a reason, mostly for what he was saying when he got back from nam. and yeah he was decorated, but if you look at the purple hearts he recieved you will see that for the most part they were self inflicted, due to his incompetence, Kerry falls into the same category as Jane Fonda in my book.


and yes this is a very true statement:

i like the unheated intelligent conversations with a differing opinion :tup:

[Anonymous]

my patriotism comment had to do with the fact that he is in the communist hero museum for a reason, mostly for what he was saying when he got back from nam. and yeah he was decorated, but if you look at the purple hearts he recieved you will see that for the most part they were self inflicted, due to his incompetence, Kerry falls into the same category as Jane Fonda in my book.


and yes this is a very true statement:

i like the unheated intelligent conversations with a differing opinion :tup:

Sounds like your info is from the swift boat veterns/John O'neill. There has been over-whelming evidence that shoots down almost ever aspect of the SBVT book. With the fog of war, we probably will never know the real facts of how Kerry served. What we do know to be facts though is that he did go to Vietnam and Bush did not. Does that make him more patriotic than Bush? Not really but it's a matter of opinion. Lets try to form our opinions on what we know to be facts though.

As far as the communist hero museum... Let's say I decide to start a Satanic hero museum. Let's say I decide that, in my opinion, George Bush's presidency makes him perfect to go in my museum. Does that make Bush a satan worshipper? No. Does that mean that Bush's presidency makes him eligible? It would be a matter of opinion.

[mike]

oh shit, another worm can has been opened while I've been busy...............Ok, we went to Iraq for bullshit reasons as we all know. We all know that our right wing religious wacko leader has got us buried in shit, we have to know clean up the mess he started as we cant just leave the country in a blown up mess so we are in for the duration.

I will say I back our soldiers 100% and if they want to raise my taxes and give them better pay and benifits they so rightly deserve, I would gladly accept as I have friends there and they have damn well earned more than thier fair share for the courage and hard work, Thanks

[slowjet]

Ok, pretty much im hearing a lot of opinions. The only person or few that will ever know the true reason why Bush declared war on Iraq is himself and his possy. That's it. Unless you work with Bush, personally, which i doubt, eveybody here can just guess. Also what you hear in the news or read in the tabloids, that's just a bunch of hooha to reel you guys, the viewers, in to make money. Bush is not as dumb as he seems. This war is the reason that kept him in the White house and he knew that. Also, Saddam tried assassinating Bush Sr., so yeah, what do you think Bush Jr. is gonna do?

[madajb]

You are just a bunch of pathetic whiners.
If any of you had the balls and the brains, you'd be over there fighting instead of over here whining about it.

You don't like the president? Screw you, he probably doesn't like you either. Nobody likes you.

John Kerry doesn't like you either.
Kerry doesn't give a crap that he wasn't elected. He's too busy taking million dollar Ketchup baths with the Bush Twins and Hilary.

In short, you are all sheep in sheep's clothing.
-ajb

[Monster8V]

Hahahahaha!! Alan gets it......!

[SoCal_GLI]

You are just a bunch of pathetic whiners.
If any of you had the balls and the brains, you'd be over there fighting instead of over here whining about it.

You don't like the president? Screw you, he probably doesn't like you either. Nobody likes you.

John Kerry doesn't like you either.
Kerry doesn't give a crap that he wasn't elected. He's too busy taking million dollar Ketchup baths with the Bush Twins and Hilary.

In short, you are all sheep in sheep's clothing.
-ajb


you got my vote :tup:

has to be the most intelligent post i have ever seen here.

Alan how are your brakes doin?

[Tom (aka Godzilla)]

You are just a bunch of pathetic whiners.
If any of you had the balls and the brains, you'd be over there fighting instead of over here whining about it.

You don't like the president? Screw you, he probably doesn't like you either. Nobody likes you.

John Kerry doesn't like you either.
Kerry doesn't give a crap that he wasn't elected. He's too busy taking million dollar Ketchup baths with the Bush Twins and Hilary.

In short, you are all sheep in sheep's clothing.
-ajb
Post of the month!

[Monster8V]

And, he didnt copy & paste it from the New Liberal York times! Alan, they can still track you down up there. Dont be skeered man.

[Alan_One]

Good weed up there I hear...

"you put your weed in there"

[jtenright]

You are just a bunch of pathetic whiners.
If any of you had the balls and the brains, you'd be over there fighting instead of over here whining about it.

You don't like the president? Screw you, he probably doesn't like you either. Nobody likes you.

John Kerry doesn't like you either.
Kerry doesn't give a crap that he wasn't elected. He's too busy taking million dollar Ketchup baths with the Bush Twins and Hilary.

In short, you are all sheep in sheep's clothing.
-ajb
THE WORLD DOES NOT HATE AMERICA/BUSH/and Americans for no reason
Travel abroad, look at the war and America from a new light and an open mind

Swallow your Pride, arrogance, and selfshness.

"Whos your leader which is your flock"
join a Frat, Religion, or Military. ohh wait I bet you already are a member of all three of those
and came out more brainwashed from each one

I would only fight for something I believe in
like "Fight War not Wars" (CRASS)
Iraq was in not and never was about weapons of mass destruction, 911 just gave gave the president enough support to go full throttle

what about the 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians and how many americans are lost every day.

I hope Viatnam II is over before WWIII begins.

Terrorism sucks, but maybe the 1st ??? to ask is why it happened, what events lead to it, not lash out waving the american flag around every contry in this world

remember America is only a small part of this world.....but we tread all over it like we own it
not everyone in the world thinks like a redneck and has good christian values

since when did 1 innocent american life = thousands of innocent non-american lives

I hope as american culture is forced on the world our ignorance and arrogance is not a trait that is left behind


sorry if I piss a bunch of ppl off, but I thought this post needed a attack towards the Conservitive chickenshit conformists

[Firefly4322]

THE WORLD DOES NOT HATE AMERICA


.... yeah they do.

[jtenright]

I know they do and they are very justified
I said the "world do not hate america for No reason at al"l

[madajb]

Hey, umm, jtenright, that post was not meant to be taken seriously...
-ajb

[jtenright]

yea IC hard to hear sarcasim on a message board
..........

[slowjet]

John Kerry doesn't like you either.
Kerry doesn't give a crap that he wasn't elected. He's too busy taking million dollar Ketchup baths with the Bush Twins and Hilary.
-ajb

Nicely said, hahaha! :tup:

[4pounder]

You are just a bunch of pathetic whiners.
If any of you had the balls and the brains, you'd be over there fighting instead of over here whining about it.

You don't like the president? Screw you, he probably doesn't like you either. Nobody likes you.

John Kerry doesn't like you either.
Kerry doesn't give a crap that he wasn't elected. He's too busy taking million dollar Ketchup baths with the Bush Twins and Hilary.

In short, you are all sheep in sheep's clothing.
-ajb


Bahhahahahahahahahhahahaaaaaaaaaaa! Great one Alan. I just now read this and near spat my cofee all over my computer screen. Brilliant my friend.

[SoCal_GLI]

somebody on this board has listened to Crass???. the funny thing is i'am probably the only one on here besides the poster that put the Crass reference who even know who or what Crass is.

http://www.punkbands.com/lyrics/bands/crass/albums/christ.jpg

lets see....The feeding of 5000, Christ the Album, Penis Evny, ect..ect...

Securicor is the best song on feeding of 5000

and lets not forget about Rudimentary Peni

[mr_wrong]

somebody on this board has listened to Crass???. the funny thing is i'am probably the only one on here besides the poster that put the Crass reference who even know who or what Crass is.

http://www.punkbands.com/lyrics/bands/crass/albums/christ.jpg

lets see....The feeding of 5000, Christ the Album, Penis Evny, ect..ect...

Securicor is the best song on feeding of 5000

and lets not forget about Rudimentary Peni

Don't forget Conflict UK. I have a few CR@SS 7" (runs to vinyl collection), "Her Masters Voice" "Who Dunnit", and "Sheep Farming in the Falklands"

Ever wanna talk Late 70's - mid 80's punk, I'm yer man :)

[SYNYSTAGLI]

should this thread dissapear????

[TooTall]

should this thread dissapear????

Yes :tup:

[SoCal_GLI]

Don't forget Conflict UK. I have a few CR@SS 7" (runs to vinyl collection), "Her Masters Voice" "Who Dunnit", and "Sheep Farming in the Falklands"

Ever wanna talk Late 70's - mid 80's punk, I'm yer man :)

we should trade some music sometime
:tup: :tup:

[creanium]

http://www.neowin.net/forum/fun/die_thread_die.jpg

[madajb]

Quit bumping it, and it will...
-ajb