Firestorms vs. Katrina

[DTolo]

Ok, I am not being an ass or anything, but thanks to my new found college student awareness I was wondering...

How long, and how severe do people think it will take and or be before the political mess of comparing Socal to Katrina?

More specifically, when will the comparisons start with reference to race. I was and am really happy with how well coordinated efforts have been from neighbors to Federal Govt. I personally think this is great efforts in the face of tragedy.

With that I have seen in the news already how the efforts have been so much greater in orginization and effectiveness in comparison to Katrina efforts.

Then I thought about the idea of somebody bringing in the dreaded "race card". I could see the accusation that the efforts in SoCal were expidited and handled so much better because of it's larger, upper class and white citizens. And that if Katrina victims had been those same people that Katrina efforts would have been as effective as SoCal efforts.

I AM NOT ARGUING ANYTHING! I just unfortunately figured this may be something that could come up.

Personally I hope people will not go that route, and rather praise the great efforts that have been made, and not bend the tragic events for politcal leverage.





OH OH OH, let's not forget the conspiracy theory that due to the HORRIBLY plunging housing market, that these fires could have been started purposely in order to greatly increase the demand in housing, and create work for the housing companies who have over built.

Just food for though, guess that is what happens when you are stuck in the house for a few days.

[FunkTron]

totally already had this talk / debate with friends and my mom..............

......it'll come up.....but in small amounts and hopefully not to the point of media coverage.......then the media is just spreading hate at that point.

[ncttrnl]

Honestly, I think San Diego was able to step up much more to help itself because of the nature of the emergency. While the fires are widespread, a good amount of the city is still standing and functioning.

Katrina was much much worse in many ways. They were dealing with instant and total destruction of most of the city and their resources. The fires have mostly been about property damage vs survival. We still had the means to help ourselves as a city. They were largely fighting to survive.

[Paul]

Lets see...

Cedar fire 4 years ago showed San Diegans the impact of wild fires in our area.

Evacuation warnings/requests were generally obeyed.

Local emergency agencies (OES coordinated) mobilized within 24 hours.

Local and state government agencies requested help immediately and received helped.

Local San Diegans help each other out. They didn't loot (1 known case in ramona), tons of volunteers and people donating stuff.

Our Mayor doesn't suck as bad as Ray Nagin who couldn't pull his foot out of his own ass if he wanted to.

What this event shows is the difference between being prepared and a populus that listened to the warnings given to them.

[Paul]

Honestly, I think San Diego was able to step up much more to help itself because of the nature of the emergency. While the fires are widespread, a good amount of the city is still standing and functioning.

Katrina was much much worse in many ways. They were dealing with instant and total destruction of most of the city and their resources. The fires have mostly been about property damage vs survival. We still had the means to help ourselves as a city. They were largely fighting to survive.

True but they had warning, enough for people to evacuate. Some who couldn't due to lack of resources would still have been an issue but not to the level that was encountered during Katrina.

[DTolo]

Katrina was much much worse in many ways. They were dealing with instant and total destruction of most of the city and their resources. The fires have mostly been about property damage vs survival. We still had the means to help ourselves as a city. They were largely fighting to survive.

I agree, but the news is already reporting how the Firestorms have been putting up larger numbers than Katrina. If anything I think that is what would spark a rebuttle and the use of the race card.

But yes, the firestorms were a gradually (relatively) spreading allowing time for readiness and proper actions. Flash flooding did not quite have that luxury at all.

[TOYr32]

Media ran a small report on Qualcomm in relation to Katrina, and how San Diego had Bands, Buffets, and generally great attitudes.

It is a real testiment to the city understanding what they are capable of doing, and not whining about anything. Our disaster relief came from within the city. We asked for help, and help did come, but only about half right. So while we were busy dealing and coping with the situation at hand . . . volunteers, and organizations were also busy providing hospitality and entertainment to those in need.

While during Katrina . . . as soon as they didn't get the help they requested, they threw a tantrum. Some help came, but not enough, and they threw in their cards and unfortunately pulled the race card. I think the Race card was actually very appropriate. It showed how much their race is unwilling to offer help to each other. Brash remark, and I know it does not apply to all, but if they're gonna point fingers . . . they should also be able to take responsibility.

It's if anything, they can say that San Diego knows how to Party and it very hospitable because of the Latino Population!! :D

Anyways, I know my mom doesn't work, and she's been volunteering at Santana, and most of her housewife neighbors are doing the same.

Also . . . on a serious note. I think Katrina helped larger cities prepare for disasters. They knew what to do and what could help.

When people refused to abandon their homes in Katrina what happened . . . dead people.

When SD and LA refused, the fire fighter had to resort to rescue versus fighting. This caused an issue, so CHP mobilized units from all over the sate to assist with evacuation procedures, freeing up firefighters to fight the fire. Arnold mobilized the national guard to help with looting and provide a lawful presence.

I don't know all the details, but it looks like so far, Cali has done a majority of right moves, and is adapting to all the changes that it can. I think that is the big difference.

We're California, we have earthquakes and wildfires, and that's what we prepare for.

You're New Orleans . . . you're built below sea level, how do you not prepare for a flood?!?!?!?!?!

[bugzy]

how much communication did katrina have?

most everyone had access to radio or tv during the fires

most of katrina (guessing) probably had no power

so thats a big factor

[TOYr32]

how much communication did katrina have?

most everyone had access to radio or tv during the fires

most of katrina (guessing) probably had no power

so thats a big factor

Not as big because they had a lot of warning also.

[protijy337]

It just really shows the social and economical diversity in the US...

I'm not tossin stones its just a different situation with different people.

[GTiGirl]

I think there are at least a few issues I can think of that are different here compared to Katrina:

1. Type of emergency - we had hours, days for some, to get to a safe place; Katrina was quicker.

2. Scope of emergency - the physical expanse of SD was much smaller than Louisiana and the area surrounding.

3. Personal resources - the majority of affected areas of SD have been mostly middle+ class, with functioning transportation, we all drove to safe places; Katrina victims were mostly poorer folks (comparing income/expenses of the two regions), with no or poorly functioning transportation, or with cars that were damaged and couldn't be driven.

4. Infrastructure - we have been very fortunate that our infrastructure, mainly firefighting and law enforcement, has been adequate for this fire (as far as keeping people safe), as well as the reverse 911 thingie; Katrina was bombarded with rains (which humans cant control) which caused floods and the levees breaking (which humans CAN control) and did not have the reverse 911 thingie, and probably not as much access to media (like Lon said above).

5. Regional poverty - like I mentioned above, we're a much wealthier community compared to the South, so our property taxes or whatever leaves us with relatively decent resources like firefighting, etc.; the South is generally the poorest part of our country, leaving few resources and often causing desperation with people.

6. Request for help - I think government learned A LOT from the Katrina disaster and knew that they could NOT risk that happening again - from a loss of life point of view and political point of view - so when SD asked for help, Arnold said OK, and then GWB said OK; Katrina asked for help and they didn't get it, and when they did, shit was so crazy, they just got National Guard to keep people from breaking the law; essentially very little survival stuff (food, water, clothing, etc) which caused desperation in the people, so the National Guard had to come in as "peace keepers" instead of actual relief.

As a social, behavioral and community-based researcher, items 3 through 6 above are related to race. By labeling social injustices based on poverty and race as "pulling the race card" really is a disservice to us all. Let's be socially responsible and think these things through.

[FunkTron]

how much of this was environmentalists?

http://forum.signonsandiego.com/showthread.php?t=79525

just a thought.......

[ncttrnl]

Really, it comes down to knowing when to evacuate. The problem is, how do you evacuate a whole city after it has no electricity, no running water, and that is largely inaccessible if you don't start moving them early. Moving them too early can put you into a boy who cried wolf situation if the event doesn't happen or isn't severe enough to match perception. I'm not defending the way Katrina was handled but its important to realize that their conditions were much different than ours.

What it comes down to in my mind is that if you can shift your emergency response needs from saving lives to saving property, you put yourself in a much better position overall.

[ncttrnl]

I think there are at least a few issues I can think of that are different here compared to Katrina:

1. Type of emergency - we had hours, days for some, to get to a safe place; Katrina was quicker.

2. Scope of emergency - the physical expanse of SD was much smaller than Louisiana and the area surrounding.

3. Personal resources - the majority of affected areas of SD have been mostly middle+ class, with functioning transportation, we all drove to safe places; Katrina victims were mostly poorer folks (comparing income/expenses of the two regions), with no or poorly functioning transportation, or with cars that were damaged and couldn't be driven.

4. Infrastructure - we have been very fortunate that our infrastructure, mainly firefighting and law enforcement, has been adequate for this fire (as far as keeping people safe), as well as the reverse 911 thingie; Katrina was bombarded with rains (which humans cant control) which caused floods and the levees breaking (which humans CAN control) and did not have the reverse 911 thingie, and probably not as much access to media (like Lon said above).

5. Regional poverty - like I mentioned above, we're a much wealthier community compared to the South, so our property taxes or whatever leaves us with relatively decent resources like firefighting, etc.; the South is generally the poorest part of our country, leaving few resources and often causing desperation with people.

6. Request for help - I think government learned A LOT from the Katrina disaster and knew that they could NOT risk that happening again - from a loss of life point of view and political point of view - so when SD asked for help, Arnold said OK, and then GWB said OK; Katrina asked for help and they didn't get it, and when they did, shit was so crazy, they just got National Guard to keep people from breaking the law; essentially very little survival stuff (food, water, clothing, etc) which caused desperation in the people, so the National Guard had to come in as "peace keepers" instead of actual relief.

As a social, behavioral and community-based researcher, items 3 through 6 above are related to race. By labeling social injustices based on poverty and race as "pulling the race card" really is a disservice to us all. Let's be socially responsible and think these things through.

Agreed on all points

[lordoftheblings]

Media ran a small report on Qualcomm in relation to Katrina, and how San Diego had Bands, Buffets, and generally great attitudes.

It is a real testiment to the city understanding what they are capable of doing, and not whining about anything. Our disaster relief came from within the city. We asked for help, and help did come, but only about half right. So while we were busy dealing and coping with the situation at hand . . . volunteers, and organizations were also busy providing hospitality and entertainment to those in need.

While during Katrina . . . as soon as they didn't get the help they requested, they threw a tantrum. Some help came, but not enough, and they threw in their cards and unfortunately pulled the race card. I think the Race card was actually very appropriate. It showed how much their race is unwilling to offer help to each other. Brash remark, and I know it does not apply to all, but if they're gonna point fingers . . . they should also be able to take responsibility.

It's if anything, they can say that San Diego knows how to Party and it very hospitable because of the Latino Population!! :D

Anyways, I know my mom doesn't work, and she's been volunteering at Santana, and most of her housewife neighbors are doing the same.

Also . . . on a serious note. I think Katrina helped larger cities prepare for disasters. They knew what to do and what could help.

When people refused to abandon their homes in Katrina what happened . . . dead people.

When SD and LA refused, the fire fighter had to resort to rescue versus fighting. This caused an issue, so CHP mobilized units from all over the sate to assist with evacuation procedures, freeing up firefighters to fight the fire. Arnold mobilized the national guard to help with looting and provide a lawful presence.

I don't know all the details, but it looks like so far, Cali has done a majority of right moves, and is adapting to all the changes that it can. I think that is the big difference.

We're California, we have earthquakes and wildfires, and that's what we prepare for.

You're New Orleans . . . you're built below sea level, how do you not prepare for a flood?!?!?!?!?!


Then again preperations aside. San Diego as a city still exists. Most of Orleans and surrounding areas didnt, so comparisons are apples to oranges.

Wealth does play a major role in it. We still had a huge percentage of our population still going to work and going about our daily business, able to send, food, money, blankets to the areas where it was requested. In N.O. Everyone needed food, water and blankets. they had ample warning that fires were coming and prepared accordingly. Basically for any comparission to be legitimate we would have needed the fires to sweep through the southland areas in a matter of hours. No slow burning, but insane firestorm. Make the time tables the same and I think you'll see many of the same problems exist.

No one problem is to blame for anything, it's good to see SD and OC able to provide for its people. However there was still alot of bureaucratic bullshit local FD's had to wade through. the lack of a adequate amount of airborne waterjets and copters is pretty annoying. We watched Irvine fire burn for what seemed like 2 days before a single helicopter or jet was seen. Right now we have military helicopters sitting on the ground without baskets, were waiting on private contractors to deliver fire retardant chemicals. Can't wait to see the bill for that one.

[Paul]

We learned from the 03 Cedar's fire that our procedures for requesting federal and military aid was lacking. Bill Davis did jack to get us aid and as a result the city paid for it in homes and property. The result was a new set of procedures for requesting aid.

At Katrina the locals believed that the levees would hold and when coupled with the federal government not warning of potential levee failures, it was disasterious.

BUT the residents of NO had plenty of warning that the hurricane was on the way.

[DTolo]

See, I KNEW Jonelle would see almost exactly what I was hinting at.

I also agree much with that circumstances were different, and there truly shouldn't be a direct comparison made.

I do also agree that even before any disasters were imminent, when looking at the two regions, one was clearly more capable of handling a disaster than the other.

I just kinda wanted to see what others' thoughts were, and not get TOO deep. Again sociology bares it's migrane-inducing face... I can just imagine where class discussion is going to go next Monday.

Oh, the envorionmentalist thing is a bunch of crap and another example of taking tragedy and using it for politcal advantage. Fires are going to happen, and I would go so far as to say that they happen less often due to our prevantative measures. However it does make for larger and more dangerous fires when they do happen. anyhow, the whole environmentalists arguement is lame, and a lame attempt for high profile coverage to somebody's politcal stance. LAME!

[lordoftheblings]

BUT the residents of NO had plenty of warning that the hurricane was on the way.

But would you leave your house when someone said there was a 6000 acre fire on Pendleton or in Escondido? Probably not. No one expected it to be that bad (at least not the living inhabitants of the city), and the civilians weren't instructed in advance the levee's wouldn't hold.

No accurate comparison can be made, just be thankful that we dont have the same situation on hand and that only some 1300 homes thus far have been destroyed.

[Paul]

My comment is in regards to preparation for a hurricane.

WOuld I leave in your situation? no... but 6000 acre fire isn't a cat 5 hurricane either.

If I were to stay behind knowing that a hurricane was on the way, what would I do?

Let me think about that.

Radio, crank or battery operated.
Flash light crank or battery operated.
Enough food + water for a week or more.

If I lived in low-lying land, i'd find higher land. It's just dumb to sit in a flood plane when you know you'll be drenched with water. EVEN if the levee's held, there's still enough water to flood 1-2' in many areas. If I were in that area I'd leave.

The point is lack of preparation by the individuals in the area when given fair warning of incoming danger.

So you don't evac, fine. At least stock up on food/water.

I can't feel pity for people who fail to listen to warnings and at least supply themselves with enough food to eat for a reasonable amount of time.

[DTolo]

If I were to stay behind knowing that a hurricane was on the way, what would I do?

Let me think about that.

Radio, crank or battery operated.
Flash light crank or battery operated.
Enough food + water for a week or more.


So you don't evac, fine. At least stock up on food/water.

I can't feel pity for people who fail to listen to warnings and at least supply themselves with enough food to eat for a reasonable amount of time.

You make a good point, HOWEVER, you enforce another. Economic differences that are directly tied to race and history. Of the items you listed, many of the people that inhabited the regions that were mostly disasterously affected did not have the resources to maintane food for a week at a time. Let alone by things that we take advantage of, (radios, batteries, bottled water).

Not arguing, but just tryint to point out, by saying what you did, you reinforced the vast difference in resources in economic class, even when it comes to means needed to survive.

[Paul]

the radio/flash light is a nice to have.

Unless 100,000 people in NO had less than 15 bucks accessible to them, they can afford food for a week. Might be bland but bread is bread.

[DTolo]

the radio/flash light is a nice to have.

Unless 100,000 people in NO had less than 15 bucks accessible to them, they can afford food for a week. Might be bland but bread is bread.

I know it is slightly extreme and does not apply across the board.

I don't know any details to say much more, but I like the "apples to oranges" idea.

Just a reminder, not ruffling feathers, and I think those that can recall most of what posts I have made in the last few years, that isn't really my thing. Just had too much time to think the last couple days.

[lordoftheblings]

a vast majority of NO citizens survived on less than $8000/year income. just a fyi

[Paul]

At the end of the day each person can only count on one person, themselves. No one to blame but yourself if you're not prepared. I don't care what your economical background is.

[lordoftheblings]

So, the same rules and feelings I hope apply to all those people who don't have adequate homeowners insurance, right? I don't want to see a gigantic pity party for them afterall this is california, they did live in the desert and fires do happen yearly. ;)

[Paul]

So, the same rules and feelings I hope apply to all those people who don't have adequate homeowners insurance, right? I don't want to see a gigantic pity party for them afterall this is california, they did live in the desert and fires do happen yearly. ;)

Absolutely. It's your own responsibility to be prepared. ZERO pity!

[lordoftheblings]

I cant believe I've been a member longer than Paul!

[PhätTony]

We're California, we have earthquakes and wildfires, and that's what we prepare for.

You're New Orleans . . . you're built below sea level, how do you not prepare for a flood?!?!?!?!?!


A lot of good points and selective words you guys. My opinion, you cannot even begin to compare or categorize Katrina to SoCal. Katrina was instantanious while SoCal is a buildup. People still have/had time to evacute (even fully move out). You cannot deal with a Hurricane. You cannot fight a hurricane. You have to evacuate the whole city vice just areas at a controlled rate. Wealthier people vs. poverty is the case...its not race...its economics. I'm sure that there were 1000's of whites that were part of Katrina that are in the same boat as the rest of the blacks. It's that none of them have stood up to speak and say "hey! I was one of them. I am one of the victims of Katrina and I'm here to tell you I got the same treatment as the latino or korean guy next door that lost his life back there in New Orleans." I'd like to say it wasnt a race card but it just happened that way. We all knew it was. Until we all become colorblind this will be the situation. There will always be that anological Bus, and someone will have to sit in the back of it. The question is...when are we gonna see it as just another seat in the bus...and see that we are all on it?

[GtIrOb01]

Guys, I live here in the south and I can tell you first hand, that when there is a possible hurricane coming (or even a tropical storm), we know about it atleast a week ahead of time, usually more. News covers it like crazy. They give models on projected paths, strength, everything. Saying New Orleans didnt have time to prepare is false. Katrina was a cat 5 hurricane before it ever got to NO. 2 days before landfall, they were saying it was heading towards NO. 2 days is plenty of time to get out. The people that had the means, did get out. This left only the poorest people in the city that really didnt have any way to get out. Now, the way they handled evacuations around SD was great (as seen from an outsider). Things were organized and for the most part, people were informed and ready. A model of how mass evacuations should be done. And I do believe this was done in part of lessons learned from the Katrina disaster.

[gest24]

I've been extremely impressed with how this city and county has handled this situation. Everything from the local news constantly covering the situation to even us on here keeping and eye out and posting up whats going on.

As for us V N.O., We had plenty of lessons learned from the last fire and Katrina. Our situation shows we have learned from past disasters. The city had a plan and they executed it very well. The local news sometimes botched things but were quick to make things right. Yes, the fires do suck and can cause a lot of damage but like cited before this isn't an all inclusive natural disaster like a hurricane. Our situation was more spontanious and harder to predict but the situation in the south took out power, water, sewer, almost all the bare essentials to live. We as a city still operated almost at a normal pace and still had grocery stores open, power, places to take showers.

I've been through a hurricane that has displaced me. It was a shitty situation. No showers for almost a week. No hot meals for just as long. It was pretty much like camping. But that camping trip included 500 young sailors away from home. We had lunch meats from schools we stayed in and milk. No refridgeration so by the end of the first week things were begining to spoil. But there was only so much the Navy could do for us.

All in all, I'd rather be here in SD in the middle of a firestorm than back home in a Nor-easter or at my parents in a Hurricane.

[madajb]

The scale of destruction isn't even close to Katrina.

That said, I think the emergency personnel and agencies did an exemplary job in San Diego, and should be commended for their preparedness and dedication.

-ajb

[PhätTony]

Katrina - Millions of people to evacuate in a 5 day span

SoCal - 500k to evacuate in a controlled amount of time so far.

Good luck to you all! anything we can do to help don't hesitate. We're a big family here.

I tell you what, these were awful and still are; but God help us if we ever have to deal with what Indonesia had to deal with in 2005 with the Tsunami. I was there to help out. I hope I never have to lift another dead infant from a muddy pool of water again.