Iraq's Forces Founder Under Rebel Assaults

[Alan_One]

MOSUL, Iraq, Nov. 29 - Iraqi police and national guard forces, whose performance is crucial to securing January elections, are foundering in the face of coordinated efforts to kill and intimidate them and their families, say American officials in the provinces facing the most violent insurgency.

For months, Iraqi recruits for both forces have been the victims of assassinations and car bombs aimed at lines of applicants as well as police stations. On Monday morning, a suicide bomber rammed a car into a group of police officers waiting to collect their salaries west of Ramadi, killing 12 people, Interior Ministry officials said.

While Bush administration officials say that the training is progressing and that there have been instances in which the Iraqis have proved tactically useful and fought bravely, local American commanders and security officials say both Iraqi forces are riddled with problems.

In the most violent provinces, they say, the Iraqis are so intimidated that many are reluctant to show up and do not tell their families where they work; they have yet to receive adequate training or weapons, present a danger to American troops they fight alongside, and are unreliable because of corruption, desertion or infiltration.

Given the weak performance of Iraqi forces, any major withdrawal of American troops for at least a decade would invite chaos, a senior Interior Ministry official, whose name could not be used, said in an interview last week.

South of Baghdad, where American troops are still trying to drive out insurgents after the recent offensive in Falluja, American officers warn their own troops to be prepared to "duck and cover" to avoid stray shots fired by Iraqi recruits.

In the northern city of Mosul, almost the entire police force and large parts of several Iraqi National Guard battalions deserted during an insurgent uprising this month. Iraqi leaders had to use Guard battalions of Kurdish soldiers to secure the city, kindling ethnic tensions with Arabs. Police stations in western Mosul have perhaps several hundred officers in an area that is supposed to have several thousand.

For those brave enough to come to work, "right now, all they're doing is looking out the window and making sure the bad guys aren't coming to get them," said an American military official in Mosul, who did not want his name to be used.

In a telephone interview on Saturday, Lt. Gen. David H. Petraeus, the American commander overseeing training of the Iraqi security forces, acknowledged the shortcomings in the Iraqis' performance, particularly by the police in Mosul and in Anbar Province, which stretches west from Ramadi to the Syrian border.

But General Petraeus said Iraqi Army, National Guard and police commando units had done well in other places, including Falluja, Najaf, Kut, Hilla, Karbala and much of southern Iraq, where the security situation was not as dangerous.

Iraqi security forces at all levels need better officers to lead the units, he said. "It's all about leadership," he said. "Where you see that, they really do well."

Can you force freedom on a country? Or do the people have to want to fight for it to EARN it?

[Tom]

But General Petraeus said Iraqi Army, National Guard and police commando units had done well in other places, including Falluja, Najaf, Kut, Hilla, Karbala and much of southern Iraq, where the security situation was not as dangerous.

Iraqi security forces at all levels need better officers to lead the units, he said. "It's all about leadership," he said. "Where you see that, they really do well."


IRAQI NATIONAL GUARD COMPOUND MAHMUDIYAH, Iraq (July 20, 2004) -- The quick reaction of two Iraqi National Guard soldiers cost them their own lives, but saved those of 250 recently.

"The people who did this are against the advancement of Iraq. They are only trying to start violence and cause a nuisance," said Sgt. Ali Al-Hamdani, a spokesman for the Mahmudiyah ING. "These soldiers were very good at their duties. Their sacrifice is necessary for the security of Iraq."

More than 250 Iraqi men had gathered outside the front gates of the compound here during the morning of July 17. Many were interested in joining the newly formed Iraqi National Guard and working to rebuild their country. One terrorist saw this as the best time to strike.

A taxi approached the front gates at 7:45 a.m., according to witnesses. One of the Iraqi soldiers on duty at the gate that morning was Adil Abed, a young man who was planning to be married next week. He would never see his ceremony or his bride-to-be again.

Abed attempted to stop the suspicious taxi. When the driver failed to respond, Abed fired his AK-47 and the driver returned fire with a pistol, hitting Abed.

The soldier's comrade Sadaam Obeeid rushed forward to help his friend when the taxi, packed with explosives, detonated. The blast sent shrapnel and debris a hundred meters in every direction killing the two soldiers, the driver and injuring many of the civilians standing near the gate. The engine block of the taxi landed 80 meters away from the blast. It landed on top of a parked car.

When the confusion caused by the attack died down, the soldiers took time to reflect on what they'd lost a few days later.

"We are very sad. They were our friends and now we've lost them. They were good men," said Deputy Sgt. Thaid Hadiph, an ING soldier from Mahmudiyah. "The sacrifice they made for Iraq will not be forgotten."

The Iraqi solders' actions weren't surprising for the Marines dedicated to training them to take a greater role in security and rooting out terrorism. Lt. Col. Rick Jackson is a 46-year-old from Allendale, N.J. Marine serving as the deputy director of Iraqi Security Forces for 1st Marine Division. He said the actions, while tragic, are telling of the dedication of Iraqis sworn to protect their nation.

"These guys are out training with us every day," Jackson explained. "We do joint patrols together. To hear they stood their ground and acted the way they did isn't that surprising at all."

Jackson refuted rumors that ING soldiers were unwilling or unable to perform their missions. He compared their training to that of Marines.

"If you enlisted a Marine in February, when these guys stood up, he wouldn't be to his first unit by now," he said. "Now, they're not Marines, but if you look at the amount of formalized training and the threat, they're doing a pretty good job."

The soldiers of the ING here showed some sadness when they talked about their friends killed in the explosion. However, through the loss, they also found new resolve to continue protecting the people of Iraq.

"They are holy victims of the war on terrorism," said Iraqi Sgt. Haair Ahamy, an ING soldier. "They stood up and were brave, protecting their people. They were cowards, the terrorists who attacked us."

Ahamy said the attacks were a blatant attempt by anti-Iraqi forces to derail progress being made to stabilize Iraqi under the new sovereign government. The terrorist's target, he explained, was a group willing to serve their nation's interests. That flow of eager men hasn't slowed.

Every hour, men approach the gate to join the ING. One recruit said he did not like the deaths of the soldiers but he was not afraid of it.

"The terrorists were trying to discourage people from joining the ING with their attack," Ahamy said. "In the days following it we have had many, many men come to us wanting to join. They see the attack as proof they are needed. Terrorists will not win here."

The soldiers gathered the remains of their fallen and draped them with an Iraqi flag. A ceremony was held on the compound before turning the fallen over to their families. Iraqi officers visited the families of the two men during the funeral ceremonies to offer their condolences.

"Their death makes a vibration that is felt in the town. The people want the violence to stop," Haair said. "We all know we must work hard and be responsible for that to happen. We support the soldiers' sacrifice by continuing their holy duty to make that happen."

For the Marines' part, the sacrifice of the two Iraqi soldiers is indicative of the resolve of their comrades.

"I had confidence before this incident," Jackson said. "I've seen what these guys are trying to do. We need to invest time in them and work with them and get them their gear."



I think they're still struggling to learn a new way of life. The soldiers in the Iraqi Army face challenges American soldiers couldn't dream of. Their training is abbreviated, due to pressure from naysayers in the U.S. who say the building of the Iraqi Army is taking too long. They don't have all the modern equipment of the Americans, which is demoralizing. They run the risk of their families being attacked if they are recognized while performing their duties.

I think one would need to look deeper than a single NY Times article to properly guage the Iraqis attitude towards freedom.


The vast majority of Iraqis want the same thing everyone wants - peace, stability, a say in their government and a better life for their children.
60% of Iraqis surveyed believe that the attacks are caused by people from outside Iraq to destabilize their country.
86% of Iraqis surveyed say that the attacks are an attempt to divide Iraq and incite civil war xi.
Democracy offers Iraq the hope of peace, stability and a better life, while the people attacking the coalition forces offer only chaos and prolong internal troubles in Iraq xii.
- 72% of Iraqis agree with this
- 19% disagree
61% of Baghdadis say that ousting Saddam Hussein is worth whatever hardship they are enduring xiii.
This increases to 74% among the Shi'ia, who were most oppressed by Saddamxiv.
Between April and June, public support for radical Shi°ia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr dropped from 80% to 50%. iii.
A very tiny group of people - some of them Iraqis, many of them foreigners - are working hard to deny the vast majority of Iraqis their right and their desire to a representative government.

xi. Independent Institute for Administration and Civil Society Studies poll D6 of Baghdad, Musul, Basrah, Hilla, Karbala, and Ramady conducted from 20th February to the 1st of March. 1340 sample, ± 4 % margin of error.
xii. Independent Institute for Administrative and Civil Society Studies, fieldwork conducted December 11 and December 17, 2003. Sample size 1531 in six cities: Baghdad, Basrah, Mosul, Hillah, Diwania and Ramadi.
xiii. Gallup poll of Baghdad, September 2003
xiv. Gallup poll of Baghdad, September 2003
xv. Independent Institute for Administrative and Civil Society Studies D8, fieldwork conducted May 27th through June 11, 2004; Sample 1920 interviews in 18 governorates; margin of error of +/- 2.4% & Independent Institute for Administrative and Civil Society Studies, fieldwork conducted April 21 and May 1 in Baquba, Hilla, Diwaniyah, Mosul, Basrah, Baghdad.

Of course, if you had a 100% negative outlook on the situation, you could grab every negative tidbit of info that popped up and paint it on a billboard in giant red letters.

[Alan_One]

I think they're still struggling to learn a new way of life. The soldiers in the Iraqi Army face challenges American soldiers couldn't dream of. Their training is abbreviated, due to pressure from naysayers in the U.S. who say the building of the Iraqi Army is taking too long. They don't have all the modern equipment of the Americans, which is demoralizing. They run the risk of their families being attacked if they are recognized while performing their duties.

I think one would need to look deeper than a single NY Times article to properly guage the Iraqis attitude towards freedom.

Of course, if you had a 100% negative outlook on the situation, you could grab every negative tidbit of info that popped up and paint it on a billboard in giant red letters.

Subtle :rolleyes:

But the question I'm asking is about the cost of freedom. The war itself is an issue apart. At this point Saddam is gone. We're really fighting al qaeda now.

I've always felt that freedom was something you had to want bad enough to fight for... Of course people have fought for all kinds of things... Religion, communism, soccer, drugs, land, money... those last three have been more like governments arranging fights so I guess they don't apply.

I'm not framing my question with this one article. Doing that would be like buying into everything the administration tells you. If you've been paying attention there have been other events covered by other organizations (NPR, BBC, ect) that highlight similar occurences.

So is freedom a gift you can give?

[Tom]

I am many things, but subtle is not one of them.

You can give someone freedom, but they will never fully appreciate it until they learn how to respect it. The challenge now is to teach the Iraqis how to respect their newfound freedoms.

And, I'd much rather be fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq than in Manhattan.

The media relishes in bad news, it's what circulates. I don't understand it, but people are enthralled with tragedy. It goes beyond any political affiliation. The building of irrigation ditches and re-painting of schools is not something that any media outlet wants to cover. They want to shock the reader and capture his attention so he won't change the channel or pass up the newspaper stand.

[Alan_One]

And, I'd much rather be fighting Al Qaeda in Iraq than in Manhattan. Yeah, me too.


The media relishes in bad news, it's what circulates. I don't understand it, but people are enthralled with tragedy. It goes beyond any political affiliation. The building of irrigation ditches and re-painting of schools is not something that any media outlet wants to cover. They want to shock the reader and capture his attention so he won't change the channel or pass up the newspaper stand.

Yeah, I get that but we need all that stuff here as well. And if on the rare occasion where the schools here get that kind of work done on them they don't make the news here either.

Plus, I can't imagine that you think it's all an act of kindness... do you? Schools and rebuilding are part of stabilization. "You have to have a plan to win the peace"? Unless you give them stability it will get worse. I'm not saying it's not a good thing but it's by no means altruistic. The war is all layers of effects... political... social... the invasion was the big flashy bang at the beggining. But what about the end?

If the Iraqis wanted freedom they should have fought for it.

As you can see they're very capable of running a terror campaign.

you can't force freedom on these people. they don't know how to protect it.

Why don't we bring freedom to saudi arabia?

They want it too.

And there's people already fighting for it there.

Unless the Iraqi people stand up and fight for their freedom together - ratting out insurgents, taking back their neighborhoods, making an effort and not a paycheck - they don't deserve it.

Try coming to my house and taking my freedom.

[madajb]

Unless the Iraqi people stand up and fight for their freedom together - ratting out insurgents, taking back their neighborhoods, making an effort and not a paycheck - they don't deserve it.

By those standards, one could make a pretty good argument that most Americans don't deserve freedom.
heh.


Try coming to my house and taking my freedom.
That was done years before you were born.
-ajb

[Alan_One]

By those standards, one could make a pretty good argument that most Americans don't deserve freedom.
heh.

That was done years before you were born.
-ajb

hey, as long as I'm free to have sex with my wife, pay too much for gas, and pay my taxes, I'll call it freedom.

And as long as we have the NRA there will be at least some americans who deserve it [freedom].

[madajb]

hey, as long as I'm free to have sex with my wife, ... I'll call it freedom.


You know....freedom is something we all share....
-ajb

[Tom]

Plus, I can't imagine that you think it's all an act of kindness... do you? Schools and rebuilding are part of stabilization. "You have to have a plan to win the peace"? Unless you give them stability it will get worse. I'm not saying it's not a good thing but it's by no means altruistic. The war is all layers of effects... political... social... the invasion was the big flashy bang at the beggining. But what about the end?

Occupations are never easy. In our history, they usually involve the use of U.S. tax dollars to fix what we just finished breaking. You need stability, yes. But, you can't discount the human factor when an Iraqi citizen sees a U.S. soldier painting a fence at a hospital. I've read stories of U.S. soldiers volunteering their own time to provide services to Iraqis. I don't pretend that the infrastructure we're building is being done so out of the kindness of our hearts. It benefits us and the Iraqis.


If the Iraqis wanted freedom they should have fought for it.

As you can see they're very capable of running a terror campaign.

They're still trying to figure out how to live. Their daily lives were wrought with fear that they might be swept up by Saddam's police at any time. Armed uprisings against Saddam's government were met with brutal and over-reactionary attacks on civilians. This happened in the North with the Kurds and in the South with the Sunnis.


you can't force freedom on these people. they don't know how to protect it.

You can give it to them, show them how to care for it, and teach them to enjoy it. Once you get through that awkward stage, it becomes self sufficient.


Why don't we bring freedom to saudi arabia?

They want it too.

And there's people already fighting for it there.

The Saudi Government still talks to us. I do think we need to do more to promote basic freedoms in Saudi Arabia, but I believe they'll be more receptive than Saddam ever was.


Unless the Iraqi people stand up and fight for their freedom together - ratting out insurgents, taking back their neighborhoods, making an effort and not a paycheck - they don't deserve it.

This is happening in Iraq, the media outlets won't cover it. That was sort of my point in the previous reply. If your statement was true, Iraq would be 1000 times worse than it is now.

Tell AJB he can share your 'freedom' if he shares diaper duty with the twins.