5 Years of War...What are your thoughts?

[PhätTony]

What do you guys feel about the war today? Should we get out now? Should we stay the course? What would happen if we did leave now? Would the security of the middle east fall to the radical islamists?

I've been totally into what is happening in the middle east and in Europe ever since I was stationed in Belgium iin April 2001.

Do you think we (west/middle east) can talk it over?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/19/anti.war.protests/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

Peace...start talking?
5Bcf3iI0j44

This one is aimed at young
3mA9GkXFbL4

A bit more insight to those who dont know
vMHCGT9syZ8

Why can't we just dance it off like we used to back in da day?
vSgPpwFHGt4

[Agent Orange]

Why are troops in Iraq and not Iran again??? You know, that country that actually HAS WMDs???

[CALL AAA]

Although we didn't find huge stockpiles, like Iraq used to have, they did find several places where they were made, and weapons that were probably going to be used to disperse them. Oh, they also found a dictator who had been known to use them on his own people. They're there somewhere. I just think it would take a lot of digging random holes in the desert before we find the motherlode.

But you're right, I can't imagine what Iran has. They probably have all the high quality French-made chemical weapons.

[Agent Orange]

Oh yeah, there's no doubt that Iraq was a hot bed at one time. But compared to others in the neighborhood, they aren't really anything anymore, err, for now, lol

[PhätTony]

um...think we're gettiin away from the topic guys. What about the questions?

[madajb]

It was complete idiocy from the beginning.

-ajb

[DTolo]

The strategic mission has become more and more grey, with an unclear definition.

As I know, the "mission" originally was to remove a dictator from power, rid the country of WMDs and return the country to the people (ideally in a democracy of sorts). Of course those are the glorious missions and I am sure there were underlying incentives. Now... it is much less clear what we are trying to do.

On the ground, the missions at the tactical level are clear to those accomplishing them, but again... not everyone is clear on what EXACTLY all these tactical victories are to amount to.

There are some good things that we have done over there; there are also some great costs that have been incurred.

I say in the way of ensuring what we have done doesn't go to complete loss, is to ensure the economy of Iraq, or at least it's people have two legs to stand on. We don't need to make them perfect, but when we pull out, they should feel safe from another, even worse dictator to be able to force his way into power.

I am assuming the extent to which we help them is what is a grey area and causing the controversy.

[themandillon]

I dont know if i agree with us being there or not, but i DO think that now that we are over there, we need to at least be over there for a while and we shouldnt just pull out right away...

[mike]

I think we need to plan an exit. We can't just up and leave, it will create a power vacuum. We can't announce an exit, then all the scum will just wait untill we leave.

[BexSoCal]

Here's how I feel about the war against a country that never attacked and never threatened to attack us. Loss of Life, Limb and Treasure all for naught!


The Cost to Our Forces in Iraq
3,990: American troops who have died in Iraq since the start of the war. [icasualties.org, 3/17/08]

29,395: Number of U.S. service members that have been wounded in hostile action since the start of U.S. military operations in Iraq. [AP, 3/11/08]

60,000: Number of troops that have been subjected to controversial stop-loss measures--meaning those who have completed service commitments but are forbidden to leave the military until their units return from war. [US News and World Report, 2/25/08]

5: Number of times the 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment has been sent to Iraq. They are the first Marine Corps unit to be sent to Iraq for a fifth time. [San Francisco Chronicle, 2/27/08]

2,100: Number of troops who tried to commit suicide or injure themselves increased from 350 in 2002 to 2,100 last year. [US News and World Report, 2/25/08]

11.9: Percent of noncommissioned Army officers who reported mental health problems during their first Iraq tour [Los Angeles Times, 3/7/08]

27.2: Percent of noncommissioned Army officers who reported mental health problems during their third or fourth Iraq tour [Los Angeles Times, 3/7/08]


The Cost to Our Military Readiness
88: Percent of current and former U.S. military officers surveyed in a recent independent study who believe that the demands of the war in Iraq have "stretched the U.S. military dangerously thin" [Foreign Policy/Center for New American Security, 2/19/08]

94: Percent of Army recruits who had high school diplomas in Fiscal Year 2003 [Larry Korb, The Guardian, 10/12/07]

79: Percent of Army recruits who had high school diplomas in Fiscal Year 2007 [Larry Korb, The Guardian, 10/12/07]

4,644: Number of new Army recruits who were granted moral waivers in Fiscal Year 2003. [Houston Chronicle, 10/14/07]

12,057: Number of new Army recruits who were granted moral waivers in Fiscal Year 2007. [Houston Chronicle, 10/14/07]

67: Percent of captains the Army managed to retain this year, short of its goal of 80 percent, and in spite of cash bonus incentives of up to $35,000 [Armed Services Committee Hearing, 2/26/08]


The Cost to Our National Security
1,188: Number of global terrorist incidents from January 2001 - September 11th, 2001. [American Security Project, "Are We Winning?," September 2007]

5,188: Number of global terrorist incidents in from January 2006 - September 11th, 2006. [American Security Project, "Are We Winning?," September 2007]
30: Percent increase in violence in Afghanistan from 2006 to 2007. [Reuters, 10/15/07]

21: Number of suicide bombings in Afghanistan in 2001. [Center for American Progress, "The Forgotten Front," 11/07]

139: Number of suicide bombings in Afghanistan in 2006, with an additional increase of 69 percent as of November 2007. [Center for American Progress, "The Forgotten Front," 11/07]

30: Percent of Afghanistan controlled by the Afghan Government according to DNI Mike McConnell. [Associated Press, 2/27/08]

2,380: Days since September 11th, 2001 that Osama Bin Laden has been at-large.


The Cost of Funding the War in Iraq
$50-60 Billion: Bush Administration's pre-war estimates of the cost of the war. [New York Times, 12/31/02]

$12 Billion: Direct cost per month of the Iraq War. [Washington Post, Bilmes and Stiglitz Op-Ed, 3/9/08]

$526 Billion: Amount of money already appropriated by Congress for the War in Iraq. [CRS, 2/22/08]

$3 Trillion: Total estimated cost of the Iraq War. [Washington Post, Bilmes and Stiglitz Op-Ed, 3/9/08]

$5 Trillion - $7 Trillion: Total cost of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan accounting for continued military operations, growing debt and interest payments and continuing health care and counseling costs for veterans. [McClatchy, 2/27/08]

160: Percent that the cost of the Iraq War has increased from 2004 to 2008. [CRS Report, 2/22/08]


The Cost to Iraqis and Journalists
8,000: Number of Iraqi military and police killed since June 2003.

[B]82,000-89,000: Estimate of Iraqi civilians casualties from violence since the beginning of the Iraq War. [Iraq Body Count]

4.5 Million: Number of Iraqi refugees both inside and outside the country. [Washington Post, 3/17/08]

61: Percent of Iraqis that believe the U.S. military presence makes the security situation in Iraq worse. [Agence France-Presse, 3/17/08]

127: Number of journalists killed in Iraq since March 2003. [Committee to Protect Journalists]


Economic Costs of War in Iraq
$33.51: Cost of a barrel of oil in March 2003. [Energy Information Administration]

$105.68: Cost of a barrel of oil on March 17, 2008. [NYMEX]


U.S. Troops and Contractors in Iraq
132,000: Number of U.S. troops in Iraq in January 2007, before President Bush's escalation.

[B]155,000: Number of U.S. troops currently in Iraq.

[B]140,000: Number of U.S. troops projected to be in Iraq in July 2008. [Associated Press, 2/26/08]

35,000: Number of private security contractors operating in Iraq. [Human Rights First, Private Security Contractors at War]

180,000: Number of private contractors operating in Iraq. [Human Rights First, Private Security Contractors at War]


Progress Towards Political Reconciliation Made By Iraqis
3: Number out of 18 Bush Administration Benchmarks Met by Iraqi Government As of January 24, 2008. [Center for American Progress, 1/24/08]

18: Number of provinces President Bush said would be secured by Iraqis as of November 2007. [President Bush Speech, 1/10/07]

8: Number of provinces actually secured by Iraqis as of January 2008. [NPR, 1/7/08]


Bush-Republican Intransigence on Staying the Course in Iraq
8: Number of times a majority of the Senate has voted to change course in Iraq.

7: Number of times Bush Republicans in Congress have blocked changing course in Iraq.

1: Number of vetoes issued by the White House over changing course in Iraq.

[mike]

Great info Becca +rep

[TOYr32]

Well . . . my view was that Bin Laden pulled something off with limited resources, but great planning and execution.

Saddam already had a grudge, and had unlimited resources, and was capable to much more devestation. And if for a instant he thought of what he was capable, or realized, the US could have been in a world of hurt at a much larger magnitude than WTC.

If your standing across the street and a kid throws a rock at you and hits you in the head, you chase him and give him a beat down.

What do you do if that kid runs, while his friend who hates you has boulder. The friend is stronger, and faster, and he realizes that hmmm . . . when you run by, he can hit you with the boulder and probably get away with it. What do you do . . . you eliminate the most valid threat before continuing with the upcoming beat down.

I think the plan was great . . . take out the most immediate threat (Saddam) and at the same time, track down the originator (Bin Laden).

Unfortunately . . . our execution has been jacked up from the beginning . . . and now we find ourselves climbing out of a hole that we also continue to dig.

There are so many sides to this whole thing, and everyone is going to have their side to stand by.

I'm for the war, I'm hating how long, but realize it could be longer. I don't think an exit strategy will help in any way. If I went overt there and died tomorrow, I would be proud to be serving my country, not upset about dying for nothing. To me, this is about something, to others this is about nothing.

That's the way it will always be as long as the general public get to view what goes on in war without ever having to experience it. You don't know Jack until you've been there, so don't protest just because you saw a story on CNN!!

[oc-audica]

I'm looking forward to some nukes in 4 years.

[TOYr32]

Here's how I feel about the war against a country that never attacked and never threatened to attack us. Loss of Life, Limb and Treasure all for naught!


The Cost to Our Forces in Iraq
3,990: American troops who have died in Iraq since the start of the war. [icasualties.org, 3/17/08]

29,395: Number of U.S. service members that have been wounded in hostile action since the start of U.S. military operations in Iraq. [AP, 3/11/08]

60,000: Number of troops that have been subjected to controversial stop-loss measures--meaning those who have completed service commitments but are forbidden to leave the military until their units return from war. [US News and World Report, 2/25/08]

5: Number of times the 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment has been sent to Iraq. They are the first Marine Corps unit to be sent to Iraq for a fifth time. [San Francisco Chronicle, 2/27/08]

2,100: Number of troops who tried to commit suicide or injure themselves increased from 350 in 2002 to 2,100 last year. [US News and World Report, 2/25/08]

11.9: Percent of noncommissioned Army officers who reported mental health problems during their first Iraq tour [Los Angeles Times, 3/7/08]

27.2: Percent of noncommissioned Army officers who reported mental health problems during their third or fourth Iraq tour [Los Angeles Times, 3/7/08]


The Cost to Our Military Readiness
88: Percent of current and former U.S. military officers surveyed in a recent independent study who believe that the demands of the war in Iraq have "stretched the U.S. military dangerously thin" [Foreign Policy/Center for New American Security, 2/19/08]

94: Percent of Army recruits who had high school diplomas in Fiscal Year 2003 [Larry Korb, The Guardian, 10/12/07]

79: Percent of Army recruits who had high school diplomas in Fiscal Year 2007 [Larry Korb, The Guardian, 10/12/07]

4,644: Number of new Army recruits who were granted moral waivers in Fiscal Year 2003. [Houston Chronicle, 10/14/07]

12,057: Number of new Army recruits who were granted moral waivers in Fiscal Year 2007. [Houston Chronicle, 10/14/07]

67: Percent of captains the Army managed to retain this year, short of its goal of 80 percent, and in spite of cash bonus incentives of up to $35,000 [Armed Services Committee Hearing, 2/26/08]


The Cost to Our National Security
1,188: Number of global terrorist incidents from January 2001 - September 11th, 2001. [American Security Project, "Are We Winning?," September 2007]

5,188: Number of global terrorist incidents in from January 2006 - September 11th, 2006. [American Security Project, "Are We Winning?," September 2007]
30: Percent increase in violence in Afghanistan from 2006 to 2007. [Reuters, 10/15/07]

21: Number of suicide bombings in Afghanistan in 2001. [Center for American Progress, "The Forgotten Front," 11/07]

139: Number of suicide bombings in Afghanistan in 2006, with an additional increase of 69 percent as of November 2007. [Center for American Progress, "The Forgotten Front," 11/07]

30: Percent of Afghanistan controlled by the Afghan Government according to DNI Mike McConnell. [Associated Press, 2/27/08]

2,380: Days since September 11th, 2001 that Osama Bin Laden has been at-large.


The Cost of Funding the War in Iraq
$50-60 Billion: Bush Administration's pre-war estimates of the cost of the war. [New York Times, 12/31/02]

$12 Billion: Direct cost per month of the Iraq War. [Washington Post, Bilmes and Stiglitz Op-Ed, 3/9/08]

$526 Billion: Amount of money already appropriated by Congress for the War in Iraq. [CRS, 2/22/08]

$3 Trillion: Total estimated cost of the Iraq War. [Washington Post, Bilmes and Stiglitz Op-Ed, 3/9/08]

$5 Trillion - $7 Trillion: Total cost of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan accounting for continued military operations, growing debt and interest payments and continuing health care and counseling costs for veterans. [McClatchy, 2/27/08]

160: Percent that the cost of the Iraq War has increased from 2004 to 2008. [CRS Report, 2/22/08]


The Cost to Iraqis and Journalists
8,000: Number of Iraqi military and police killed since June 2003.

[B]82,000-89,000: Estimate of Iraqi civilians casualties from violence since the beginning of the Iraq War. [Iraq Body Count]

4.5 Million: Number of Iraqi refugees both inside and outside the country. [Washington Post, 3/17/08]

61: Percent of Iraqis that believe the U.S. military presence makes the security situation in Iraq worse. [Agence France-Presse, 3/17/08]

127: Number of journalists killed in Iraq since March 2003. [Committee to Protect Journalists]


Economic Costs of War in Iraq
$33.51: Cost of a barrel of oil in March 2003. [Energy Information Administration]

$105.68: Cost of a barrel of oil on March 17, 2008. [NYMEX]


U.S. Troops and Contractors in Iraq
132,000: Number of U.S. troops in Iraq in January 2007, before President Bush's escalation.

[B]155,000: Number of U.S. troops currently in Iraq.

[B]140,000: Number of U.S. troops projected to be in Iraq in July 2008. [Associated Press, 2/26/08]

35,000: Number of private security contractors operating in Iraq. [Human Rights First, Private Security Contractors at War]

180,000: Number of private contractors operating in Iraq. [Human Rights First, Private Security Contractors at War]


Progress Towards Political Reconciliation Made By Iraqis
3: Number out of 18 Bush Administration Benchmarks Met by Iraqi Government As of January 24, 2008. [Center for American Progress, 1/24/08]

18: Number of provinces President Bush said would be secured by Iraqis as of November 2007. [President Bush Speech, 1/10/07]

8: Number of provinces actually secured by Iraqis as of January 2008. [NPR, 1/7/08]


Bush-Republican Intransigence on Staying the Course in Iraq
8: Number of times a majority of the Senate has voted to change course in Iraq.

7: Number of times Bush Republicans in Congress have blocked changing course in Iraq.

1: Number of vetoes issued by the White House over changing course in Iraq.

Where did all those numbers come from?

[Kelly Girl]

Nice Work Bex... Source Info?

[BexSoCal]

Every single line is Sourced

[TOYr32]

Every single line is Sourced

So went and looked for all that info on your own? Or did you get it in some mass spam mailing? With the sources already attached??

[BexSoCal]

The body count has already risen to 3,992 since the 5th Anniversary of this illegal and ridiculous war.


Let's have a moment for this weeks victims. Godspeed Brave Soldiers!

03/19/08 - NAME NOT RELEASED YET - Pending - (http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17706&Itemid=12)Non-hostile - vehicle accident - Diyala Province
03/17/08 - Elledge, Michael D - DoD Confirmation (http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11770) - Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack - Baghdad (north of)
03/17/08 - Simpson, Christopher C. - DoD Confirmation (http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11770) - Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack - Baghdad (north of)

Source: Department of Defense

[BexSoCal]

So went and looked for all that info on your own? Or did you get it in some mass spam mailing? With the sources already attached??

My source is U.S. Senator Harry Reid

[TOYr32]

The info came from a letter from Senator Harry Reid. The same guy that is against making English the official language of the US.

This is exactly what I was talking about . . . his numbers could be and probably are 100% true, accurate, and researched.

Tolo posted some numbers on the other war thread, those numbers come from DOD numbers, which could be factual and all that.

But because of the sources, people become skeptical. And people wonder why I don't have kids . . . why put them through this kind of crap.

[TOYr32]

My source is U.S. Senator Harry Reid

I'm sorry, I'm not quesitoning your post, well, originally I was, but not trying to attack you in any way. I appreciate the post of info like everyone else.

But just today my dad sent that stupid email about pumping gas slow and gassing up in the morning.

These day, I rarely believe anything I get for info until I can confirm it myself.

[BexSoCal]

The info came from a letter from Senator Harry Reid. The same guy that is against making English the official language of the US.

This is exactly what I was talking about . . . his numbers could be and probably are 100% true, accurate, and researched.

Tolo posted some numbers on the other war thread, those numbers come from DOD numbers, which could be factual and all that.

But because of the sources, people become skeptical. And people wonder why I don't have kids . . . why put them through this kind of crap.



My three posts used The United States Government as my source and they are not credible?

[TOYr32]

My three posts used The United States Government as my source and they are not credible?

Not "not credible" . . . the actual source is the senator, because his people did the research. And because of some of his stances, he become a controversial provider of negative / positive info.

Just like the DOD providing numbers of school being built, and what not . . .

Some things I definitely agree with, while other I do not.

[Anonymous]

Why are troops in Iraq and not Iran again??? You know, that country that actually HAS WMDs???
They're trying to get us into Iran. McCain tried to connect Iran with al Qaeda several times Tuesday. Even after being "corrected" he goes on to link the two the next day.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qz-w9C6pa2M

Well . . . my view was that Bin Laden pulled something off with limited resources, but great planning and execution.

Saddam already had a grudge, and had unlimited resources, and was capable to much more devestation. And if for a instant he thought of what he was capable, or realized, the US could have been in a world of hurt at a much larger magnitude than WTC.

If your standing across the street and a kid throws a rock at you and hits you in the head, you chase him and give him a beat down.

What do you do if that kid runs, while his friend who hates you has boulder. The friend is stronger, and faster, and he realizes that hmmm . . . when you run by, he can hit you with the boulder and probably get away with it. What do you do . . . you eliminate the most valid threat before continuing with the upcoming beat down.

I think the plan was great . . . take out the most immediate threat (Saddam) and at the same time, track down the originator (Bin Laden).

Unfortunately . . . our execution has been jacked up from the beginning . . . and now we find ourselves climbing out of a hole that we also continue to dig.

There are so many sides to this whole thing, and everyone is going to have their side to stand by.

I'm for the war, I'm hating how long, but realize it could be longer. I don't think an exit strategy will help in any way. If I went overt there and died tomorrow, I would be proud to be serving my country, not upset about dying for nothing. To me, this is about something, to others this is about nothing.

That's the way it will always be as long as the general public get to view what goes on in war without ever having to experience it. You don't know Jack until you've been there, so don't protest just because you saw a story on CNN!!

And being there doesn't mean you know all the facts.
Saddam had unlimited resources? How could he have unlimited resources when Iraq had been under a 12 year embargo?

So Saddam was Bin Laden's friend? Truth is he did not like Bin Laden and Bin Laden did not like him. Also there were no links what so ever between Saddam/Iraq and al Qaeda. Although Cheney, to this day, will tell you and everyone that will listen different.

So... Iraq had no ties to al Qaeda and had no weapons of mass destruction but you type as if they did.

[Agent Orange]

They're trying to get us into Iran. McCain tried to connect Iran with al Qaeda several times Tuesday. Even after being "corrected" he goes on to link the two the next day.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qz-w9C6pa2M (http://youtube.com/watch?v=qz-w9C6pa2M)

I wonder about his sanity sometimes...

[TOYr32]

They're trying to get us into Iran. McCain tried to connect Iran with al Qaeda several times Tuesday. Even after being "corrected" he goes on to link the two the next day.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qz-w9C6pa2M



And being there doesn't mean you know all the facts.
Saddam had unlimited resources? How could he have unlimited resources when Iraq had been under a 12 year embargo?

So Saddam was Bin Laden's friend? Truth is he did not like Bin Laden and Bin Laden did not like him. Also there were no links what so ever between Saddam/Iraq and al Qaeda. Although Cheney, to this day, will tell you and everyone that will listen different.

So... Iraq had no ties to al Qaeda and had no weapons of mass destruction but you type as if they did.

I used friends as an example. I know the only thing that ties them together is their hate toward westerners.

The Embargo did very little politically, it did nothing to topple Saddam, and only limited resources to the general population. The Embargo only applies to members of the UN, plenty of other countries continued trade. So yes, unlimited was pretty broad, but your embargo comment means nothing to limit a crazy ass from creating anything to cause harm to the US or anyone else he feels like.

I never mentioned WMD, I'm not trying to fly that flag . . . but they had plenty of other weapons that would have cause more damage than a couple of 747's.

I think because of the whole Bush preaching WMD and nothing being found, people forget that in the early 90's the UN was responsible for disposing large quantities of WMD's from Iraq. So it's not like they were never there and just trying to learn how to make them. They know how, they were more that capable, and they had the resources.

The other thing is that the US finds itself in stupid situations because of actions they have taken in the past. We provided Bin Laden training, and we provided Iraq with the means for chemical weapons . . . along with half a dozen other countries including Germany and France.

Aside from the crappy economy, what are people really upset about?

[TOYr32]

I wonder about his sanity sometimes...

Agreed . . . have we ever had a president die in office due to natural causes??

[Agent Orange]

8 died in office, only 4 of "natural" causes

William Henry Harrison (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/williamhenryharrison/p/pwmharrison.htm) - April 4, 1841, died of pneumonia after giving a long inaugural address in the cold and rain.
Zachary Taylor (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/zacharytaylor/p/ptaylor.htm) - July 9, 1850, died of cholera after eating tainted cherries and milk in the middle of the summer.
Abraham Lincoln (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/abrahamlincoln/p/plincoln.htm) - April 15, 1865, died a few hours after being shot by an assassin.
James Garfield (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/jamesgarfield/p/pgarfield.htm) - September 19, 1881, died of blood poisoning two months after being shot by an assassin.
William McKinley (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/williammckinley/p/pmckinley.htm) - September 14, 1901, died eight days after being shot by an assassin.
Warren G. Harding (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/warrengharding/p/pHarding.htm) - August 2, 1923, died of pneumonia.
Franklin D. Roosevelt (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/franklinroosevelt/p/pfdroosevelt.htm) - April 12, 1945, died of a cerebral hemorrhage.
John F. Kennedy (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/johnfkennedy/p/pkennedy.htm) - November 22, 1963, died a few hours after being shot by an assassin.

[Anonymous]

I used friends as an example. I know the only thing that ties them together is their hate toward westerners.

The Embargo did very little politically, it did nothing to topple Saddam, and only limited resources to the general population. The Embargo only applies to members of the UN, plenty of other countries continued trade. So yes, unlimited was pretty broad, but your embargo comment means nothing to limit a crazy ass from creating anything to cause harm to the US or anyone else he feels like.

I never mentioned WMD, I'm not trying to fly that flag . . . but they had plenty of other weapons that would have cause more damage than a couple of 747's.

I took your rock to boulder analogy to mean wmd's. What other weapon would cause more damage than a 747 that wouldn't be considered a wmd?


I think because of the whole Bush preaching WMD and nothing being found, people forget that in the early 90's the UN was responsible for disposing large quantities of WMD's from Iraq. So it's not like they were never there and just trying to learn how to make them. They know how, they were more that capable, and they had the resources.

The other thing is that the US finds itself in stupid situations because of actions they have taken in the past. We provided Bin Laden training, and we provided Iraq with the means for chemical weapons . . . along with half a dozen other countries including Germany and France.

Can't argue with you there.

Aside from the crappy economy, what are people really upset about?
I'd say look to BexSoCal's post.

[PhätTony]

We can all pull out byass numbers. I can do a case study too... Ice cream and Serial Killers.. did you know that most serial killers (78%) prefered sherbert ice cream? So does that mean if you like sherbert ice cream that your bound to be a serial killer? What I'm saying is, I can associate any bad thing to anyone I dont like. If I have the means to do it. It doesnt mean it's 100% factual.

Bex: Give me 100% cold hard facts. That is all I want. When we do pull out of Iraq, there will be an uprising. There will be a massive push by insurgents, militias, countries to bind all the Middle East together. Al Qaeda will never, ever, ever stop. We will just create a breeding ground centralized for more suicide bombers. Chemical weapons factories and just flat out evil.

This is 100% factual! The real muslims "will not" stand up against the extremist ones. That is a fact! They never have and they never will. From the insurrection of Islam. They want to destroy...better yet, a genocide on all Jewish people.

How come it's just... "Get our troops out of there", "It's not our war". I have many many friends here in the states, over in Indonesia where the muslim population is 88% to this day, and in Europe. They all agree that there is nothing they can do to combat their "brothers". They cannot make war against their own. They believe that one day a savior will come, just as some of us believe in Christianity that Jesus will return in the rapture. The 12th Imam to be exact.

The Imam will rise and so will Jesus and then the world will know the true religion. Because Jesus will let the world know that the true religion is Islam.

Excuse me.... does that sound a little freaky? These are not just the fanatics and Extremists that think this. This is the Islamic community of the world. They want a world caliphate. People dont do their research right. They look online and listen to the news (propoganda), as TOY said. This is how they get their worldy updates. This is the same for the Muslim world. They get byass propoganda news. As of now, people want to wave colorful flags, paint buildings with red paint to signify that blood has been shed in the name of the government. It does nothing. Don't you think that there were protesters during both WW's? Hell yes!... but they didnt know the half of what was going on over in the BOX.

War will happen, that is the history of our world. That is what we are faced with. Some of us need a conflict. Is is wrong? It depends on what you believe in. I know many of Seabees, Marines, Soldiers that like nothing more than to put their lives on the line for our country everyday by busting down doors and building runways in the middle of a fire fight. I'm not for...or against the war. I do however accept what I've gotten myself into while being in the military. So please don't give me that "we need our soldiers back home" or "bring them back to us". What is the purpose of the military? We...fight.

Please, just take a look at some videos on you tube of islamic teachings. Not the one's against it, but the ones for things such as "Islamic Caliphate", "Coming of the 12th Imam", "Global Jihad", "Islam world". All of these are teachings that happen in an everyday sermon anywhere in the world in any mosque.

I have a friend that will not shake my hand because I am not Muslim. That's just how his belief is. He is the purest, nicest guy in the world. I would trust him with my life. But he will not shake my hand. The reason is, because I am not a muslim.

[v2rocket]

i still dont see this war as a "war" so for that i do not support the war(meaning our leaders who made us go). yet i do support the people who are there fighting, and everyone in the service.

we aren't nationalized. and there is no draft. if we were i think this war wouldnt have lasted this long. so far to me it just looks like georgie bush jr. just wanted to make his daddy proud.

just my opinion though

[madajb]

Bex: Give me 100% cold hard facts. That is all I want.

I'll give you two:
In the last 20 years, Iraq has not attacked the United States of America.
In the last 20 years, the United States of America has invaded Iraq twice.

-ajb

[v2rocket]

so far to me it just looks like georgie bush jr. just wanted to make his daddy proud.

just my opinion though

I'll give you two:
In the last 20 years, Iraq has not attacked the United States of America.
In the last 20 years, the United States of America has invaded Iraq twice.

-ajb

hmmmmm:tup:

[mr_wrong]

I'll give you two:

In the last 20 years, the United States of America has invaded Iraq twice.

-ajb

Both times by Bush I might add.

The second, driven by pure hubris.

[BexSoCal]

I'll give you two:
In the last 20 years, Iraq has not attacked the United States of America.
In the last 20 years, the United States of America has invaded Iraq twice.

-ajb

Thank you.

Also, I do believe I was the only person to post on this thread by using facts, siting every source, doing additional fact finding on my own and never once did I ever speak in hyperbole or rhetoric.

I don't know what more I can do.

I am from a police & military family. I entered Civil Air Patrol when I was 13 and stayed for 6 years. I wanted to spend my entire life in the Military but sadly they wouldn't ever let me fly because I am female so I never signed up for full-time. (Thankfully that rule finally changed) However, still, to this very day I will put my life on the line in defense of The United States Constitution. I believe it to be the most important and sacred document given to the people since the Magna Carta and probably the single greatest document in the history of civilization. It is that important to me.

but wrong is wrong and this war is wrong! It was from the start and it's only gotten worse. The United States removed the keystone that stabilized the Middle East and now we've created a vacuum of such magnitude that it will never be filled by us.

The Middle East is a total disaster and it's all our fault.

[v2rocket]

However, still, to this very day I will put my life on the line in defense of The United States Constitution. I believe it to be the most important and sacred document given to the people since the Magna Carta and probably the single greatest document in the history of civilization. It is that important to me.

but wrong is wrong and this war is wrong! It was from the start and it's only gotten worse. The United States removed the keystone that stabilized the Middle East and now we've created a vacuum of such magnitude that it will never be filled by us.

The Middle East is a total disaster and it's all our fault.

:tup::tup::tup:

agreed on the constitution x2!

[PhätTony]

The Middle East is a total disaster and it's all our fault.

i utterly, completely and fiercely disagree with that comment. Pls read some more into the history of the middle east. I speak from Crusade times and on.

[mr_wrong]

i utterly, completely and fiercely disagree with that comment. Pls read some more into the history of the middle east. I speak from Crusade times and on.

Historically, yes, absolutely.

Recently, however, in regards to our Iraqi occupation, we are the problem.

[madajb]

.
I wanted to spend my entire life in the Military but sadly they wouldn't ever let me fly because I am female so I never signed up for full-time. (Thankfully that rule finally changed)

I'm presuming you mean combat, since if your age is right in your profile, you'd have been 10 when the first women graduated USAF pilot school.


The Middle East is a total disaster and it's all our fault.
Speaking of hyperbole...

-ajb

[oc-audica]

You know the funny thing is everybody is trippin about the price for oil from the middle east ~

What about the big gas companies like Exxon? Aren't they American companies? They (Exxon specifically) PROFIT OVER $40,000,000,000 (yes 40 billion) a year.

[PhätTony]

It's the Oil investors that come out on top son... I'd suggest investing in Exxon or Shell

[HardIce2447]

with a US soldier body count over 4,000...it is time to cut the losses and run...need a time table and a withdrawl plan.

The VFW now has plenty more members

[TOYr32]

with a US soldier body count over 4,000...it is time to cut the losses and run...need a time table and a withdrawl plan.

The VFW now has plenty more members

I'm a member . . . $.50 beers FTW!!

[PhätTony]

with a US soldier body count over 4,000...it is time to cut the losses and run...need a time table and a withdrawl plan.

I really cant believe an American said that, the word run. You actually think this will solve the problem of a global jihad? lmao. In a war it's all about conquering. They wont stop till they conquer the world.