1 in 32

[madajb]

Apropos this thread (http://www.socaleuro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=257), the US set a new prison record last year.
-ajb
(Though, the percentage seems a bit off: 3.2 percent of 294,000,000 is 9,400,000 or so)

[Tom (aka Godzilla)]

scary isn't it? Before long, everyone will either be in jail, a guard, or a lawyer.

[paultakeda]

I continue to blame the Texan Republican minority currently in control of the GOP.

[madajb]

I continue to blame the Texan Republican minority currently in control of the GOP.
Yeah, 'cause that explains California.
Guess I should have actually posted the article.

Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5517618/)
-ajb

[Monster8V]

Ill be happier when its 1 in 5.
Traffic will be SO MUCH better. Course, you guys will be in the bighouse as someones bitch but, oh well, thats life!! GET USED TO IT!

[GTiGirl]

With so many people breaking the "law", maybe we should rethink our "laws", who wrote them and for what purpose and rewrite the damn books...

[allizard]

I continue to blame the Texan Republican minority currently in control of the GOP.

Sure... just blame someone else but themself. :bs:

You don't break the law you, you don't go to jail. If you break the law, just makesure you don't get caught. I think that's a pretty good simple rule to follow.

[allizard]

With so many people breaking the "law", maybe we should rethink our "laws", who wrote them and for what purpose and rewrite the damn books...

okay now is not someone's fault but the Law is at fault. :bs:

[madajb]

With so many people breaking the "law", maybe we should rethink our "laws", who wrote them and for what purpose and rewrite the damn books...
We've all seen those "studies" that suggest the average American breaks x number of laws during the day.
It would be interesting to see a valid, academic thesis on the subject.
Myself, I break at least one Federal law(that I know about) everyday. =)
-ajb

[GTiGirl]

okay now is not someone's fault but the Law is at fault. :bs:

I think you completely misunderstood my post. I think you are taking it at face value and not thinking critically about it.

Let me break it down for you...

I think that the laws are written with a distinct purpose. I do not think they are to protect the general public from social ills. I think they are to protect a certain sector of the public (those who write the laws) from issues that they (those who write the laws) consider social ills. Therefore, I think the law serves only the powerful at the expense of the powerless.

I think that this society is changing and the laws written are not changing with it. Therefore, we need to re-examine the laws written, think critically about them, and change them so that all people are protected and taxpayers money is spent on issues the taxpayers feel are more worthy (I just added this part because the whole prison debate seems to revolve around money).

[ncttrnl]

We've all seen those "studies" that suggest the average American breaks x number of laws during the day.
It would be interesting to see a valid, academic thesis on the subject.
Myself, I break at least one Federal law(that I know about) everyday. =)
-ajb


Suzanne is over 18.... its okay to take her across state lines. You're safe.

[madajb]

Suzanne is over 18.... its okay to take her across state lines. You're safe.
White slavery is a tricky business, you can never be too careful.
-ajb

[madajb]

taxpayers money is spent on issues the taxpayers feel are more worthy (I just added this part because the whole prison debate seems to revolve around money).
The DA up here just held a poll (http://www.registerguard.com/news/2004/07/19/1a.dasurvey.0719.html)
to see which "petty" crimes the public would like to see prosecuted, on the logic that since the office is understaffed, he can't prosecute every crime.
-ajb

[GTiGirl]

We've all seen those "studies" that suggest the average American breaks x number of laws during the day.
It would be interesting to see a valid, academic thesis on the subject.
Myself, I break at least one Federal law(that I know about) everyday. =)
-ajb

I was not suggesting that the average person breaks x amount of laws per day (though I agree with the statement).

I was suggesting that the law itself is the main reason people find themselves in prison (most of the time). And I am not talking about violent offenders. Sure, if you commit an act against a person, sure get locked up because you are dangerous. However, certain laws, especially drug offenses have minimum mandatory sentences that are discriminatory in their practice (see any study on powder v. rock cocaine sentencing) and in my opinion too harsh (the punishment does not fit the crime). On the other hand, you will see white collar offenders (i.e. Martha Stewart, Enron) who commit non-violent crimes that affect thousands of people across the globe and are given probation, fines, etc.

I can see that I am going to incite a lot of debate about this topic, and I will go ahead and own the label "liberal", hell, I'll take "radical". So, if you want to try to discredit me, I will reference my statements tomorrow after I get the sources to my academic references I have backing my statements.

[allizard]

I think you completely misunderstood my post. I think you are taking it at face value and not thinking critically about it.

Let me break it down for you...

I think that the laws are written with a distinct purpose. I do not think they are to protect the general public from social ills. I think they are to protect a certain sector of the public (those who write the laws) from issues that they (those who write the laws) consider social ills. Therefore, I think the law serves only the powerful at the expense of the powerless.

I think that this society is changing and the laws written are not changing with it. Therefore, we need to re-examine the laws written, think critically about them, and change them so that all people are protected and taxpayers money is spent on issues the taxpayers feel are more worthy (I just added this part because the whole prison debate seems to revolve around money).

So what are you proposing? Legalize drugs? Legalize prostitution? Legalize gay marriage? Remove the three strikes law? lower the drinking age? Up the speed limits on the freeway? what else?

How much change in our society that we have to accept in order to lower the prison population? :confused:

Don't get me wrong about picking on face value. I understand situation. It's different prosecuting theft vs. murder. But basic principle is still the same. Don't break the law and it's just that simple.

[GTiGirl]

The DA up here just held a poll (http://www.registerguard.com/news/2004/07/19/1a.dasurvey.0719.html)
to see which "petty" crimes the public would like to see prosecuted, on the logic that since the office is understaffed, he can't prosecute every crime.
-ajb

It will be interesting to see the results of that poll. Considering your geographic location and the voting history of your state, I have a guess....

[madajb]

I was not suggesting that the average person breaks x amount of laws per day (though I agree with the statement).

No, not at all.
I was just struck by the thought while reading your post.
=)

-ajb

[madajb]

It will be interesting to see the results of that poll. Considering your geographic location and the voting history of your state, I have a guess....
We
went (http://www.registerguard.com/news/2004/07/24/a1.dasurvey.0724.html) with Theft, Vandalism, Drug possession and Vice/public disorder in that order.
-ajb

[GTiGirl]

So what are you proposing? Legalize drugs? Legalize prostitution? Legalize gay marriage? Remove the three strikes law? lower the drinking age? Up the speed limits on the freeway? what else?

How much change in our society that we have to accept in order to lower the prison population? :confused:

I am proposing many things, however, I do not feel like discussing every issue on the books with you online. You are welcome to email me about it though.

But, the issues you did suggest...

Legalize drugs? YES, but not all of them. I say LEGALIZE it to Marijuana (which is the only drug to have no incidents of overdose or violent acts committed while under the influence). I also think we should LEGALIZE certain chemical drugs (Ecstasy, GHB, etc.) but ONLy after extensive research. Hell, alcohol and tobacco are legal drugs that have a far higher risk to health and violence. See many other industrialized western countries.

Legalize prostitution? YES, but only in regulated facilities, i.e. Bunny Ranch, etc. I do not think street prostitution should be legal because of the risk it poses to the prostitutes and the johns (health and violence). See many other industrialized western countries.

Legalize gay marriage? YES. This is a civil rights issue that, on paper, is the last gap to close for a purely egalitarian society. Marriage is based on love and nobody can judge anybody else on love. Rights should be granted to all partnerships regardless of who the partners are. This goes to redefinition... yes, if we have to rewrite the freaking dictionary then lets do it. This also goes to the concept of serving a certain population. Without equal rights, a large portion of our population is deemed unequal.

Remove the three strikes law? YES. This law has been shown to be discriminatory in its delivery. It should only pertain to serious violent offenders. (See prior discussion on laws in previous post). This also leads to unfair sentences and again, more taxpayer money wasted on people who need rehabilitation, not a cage. See many other industrialized western countries.

Lower the drinking age? YES. If I am old enough to be drafted and die for my country without my choice as well as vote in elections that have an effect on my life and the lives of everybody else, I should be able to drink a beer. See all other industrialized western countries.

Up the speed limits on freeways? NO. However, I do think that mandatory written and driving tests should be given more often, especially to young and older drivers, drivers with moving violations on their records and those with accidents. Driving is not a right, it is a priveldge, but public transportation is a right and we should invent more into that for its numerous positive aspects.

And now, I must go back to work for my liberal university analyzing statistical data on job training for non-violent offenders leaving the system.

[paultakeda]

Yeah, 'cause that explains California.
Guess I should have actually posted the article.

Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5517618/)
-ajb

I never said I was being rational about who I blame. ;)

[allizard]

There is nothing much to discuss on these issue between a liberal and a conservative. I'm for people who should be responsible with their behavior and you are for changing laws to accommodate instead. Two side of the spectrum.

[allizard]

I never said I was being rational about who I blame. ;)

I believe that's a honest statement.

[madajb]

I never said I was being rational about who I blame. ;)
heh, well, I guess we all need a reason to vote.
=)
-ajb

[GTiGirl]

There is nothing much to discuss on these issue between a liberal and a conservative.

That is a great way to look at it. Maybe that is why nothing has changed in this country for a long time and a lot of people are dissatisfied with the way things are. Unfortunately, the people who hold the power to change things believe in your statement.


I'm for people who should be responsible with their behavior and you are for changing laws to accommodate instead. Two side of the spectrum.

I never once mentioned anything about responsibility. But, now that it is on the plate, I think people should be responsible for their behavior. I just think that what is considered appropriate or lawful behavior is different from person to person, which is evident in this topic!

[paultakeda]

Those doing hard time are summarily pressed into the Space Colonial Engineering Corps. It's time to terraform planets, and once contract is fulfilled, a land grant is given to that former prisoner and they can all go ahead and do the whole Australia thing writ large.

[allizard]

That is a great way to look at it. Maybe that is why nothing has changed in this country for a long time and a lot of people are dissatisfied with the way things are. Unfortunately, the people who hold the power to change things believe in your statement.

People who hold power in the Whitehouse is just a figurative speach. Congress pretty much blocks everything a President propose these days. So come next year if we have Kerry as President the other side of the congress will return the same tactics. Basically we still got nothing none.

I never once mentioned anything about responsibility. But, now that it is on the plate, I think people should be responsible for their behavior. I just think that what is considered appropriate or lawful behavior is different from person to person, which is evident in this topic!

True. That's why we have an election. And it's our own fault we are not educating our children.

[GTiGirl]

People who hold power in the Whitehouse is just a figurative speach. Congress pretty much blocks everything a President propose these days. So come next year if we have Kerry as President the other side of the congress will return the same tactics. Basically we still got nothing none.

Well, I am not talking about the Whitehouse. I know that the President and Congress are controlled by the military and big business through pressure and lobbying. Therefore, when I say people in control, I am talking about corporations and the elite class that controls the overwhelming (~80%) majority of this countrys (and the worlds) wealth.

So you are right, when Kerry is president next year, the tables will turn a little bit, but he is controlled by big business just as much as GW. Luckily for non-conservatives, Kerry is just left of the center.



True. That's why we have an election. And it's our own fault we are not educating our children.

The election process is another issue. It isn't very effective, and sometimes doesn't reflect the opinions of the general public (i.e. GW). And the whole "educate our children" is also another loaded issue that I won't go into right now, especially when many children's parents are in jail (see the original post!).

[madajb]

Those doing hard time are summarily pressed into the Space Colonial Engineering Corps. It's time to terraform planets, and once contract is fulfilled, a land grant is given to that former prisoner and they can all go ahead and do the whole Australia thing writ large.
Great.
Crocodile Dundee in Space.
-ajb
('cause Paul Hogan needs more money)

[allizard]

Well, I am not talking about the Whitehouse. I know that the President and Congress are controlled by the military and big business through pressure and lobbying. Therefore, when I say people in control, I am talking about corporations and the elite class that controls the overwhelming (~80%) majority of this countrys (and the worlds) wealth.

So you are right, when Kerry is president next year, the tables will turn a little bit, but he is controlled by big business just as much as GW. Luckily for non-conservatives, Kerry is just left of the center.

President and Congress aren't controlled by the military. I'm not sure where you get your information. As for Big Businesss, sure they have influence. We are living in a captialism society after all.

The election process is another issue. It isn't very effective, and sometimes doesn't reflect the opinions of the general public (i.e. GW). And the whole "educate our children" is also another loaded issue that I won't go into right now, especially when many children's parents are in jail (see the original post!).

Ah.. you are talking about the Electoral vs. Popular vote again. Yes that's a bit confusing isn't it. But consider only twice in our history have president won election with electoral vote only I think we are doing alright.

When I said "Educate our children" I don't just mean the parents. Our school have failed and yes parents aren't teaching their kids and rely on a failed school system. No wonder the children grow up and become a failed parents. The cycle goes on and it needs to be fix. Oh yeah... don't go into why parents are in jail topic. It's another can of worms to be open.

[GTiGirl]

We are living in a captialism society after all.

Maybe this is the root of our problem.

[madajb]

Maybe this is the root of our problem.
(Waiting for the inevitable "What are you, a communist?" replies...)
-ajb

[GTiGirl]

Should I answer that even though it's in parentheses and not meant to be said out loud?

[madajb]

Should I answer that even though it's in parentheses and not meant to be said out loud?
No..just an observation on this threads inevitable destination, since liberals seem to be outnumbered in this particular forum.

=)
-ajb

[paultakeda]

Labels. Always the labels.

[madajb]

Labels. Always the labels.
She
said (http://www.socaleuro.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3161&postcount=14) it, not me.
=)
-ajb

[Monster8V]

With so many people breaking the "law", maybe we should rethink our "laws", who wrote them and for what purpose and rewrite the damn books...


I know im crazy but, how about.... people stop breaking the law??

I know, way over the top..... :rolleyes:

[creanium]

I know im crazy but, how about.... people stop breaking the law??

I know, way over the top..... :rolleyes:
:eek: ... not possible!

[Tom (aka Godzilla)]

We've all seen those "studies" that suggest the average American breaks x number of laws during the day.
It would be interesting to see a valid, academic thesis on the subject.
Myself, I break at least one Federal law(that I know about) everyday. =)
-ajb

Hmm....that should be admissable in court. I've forwarded this post to the FBI, they'll be by shortly. :D :p ;)

I don't have any scientific info to back it up, but based on my experience, crooks are dumb. I mean, they don't have any education. Hardly any of them have a GED, even fewer have a H.S. diploma. Those that were raised in Mexico are even worse off. They're luck to have a 5th grade education. If I could pick on thing to focus all of our assets on, in an effort to reduce crime and prison population, it would be education.

[madajb]

Hmm....that should be admissable in court. I've forwarded this post to the FBI, they'll be by shortly. :D :p ;)

Damn, so that's who that was knocking on the gate of my compound!
=)
-ajb

[allizard]

(Waiting for the inevitable "What are you, a communist?" replies...)
-ajb

Am I suppose to ask that question?

I was going to say "So what's wrong with captialism?" but then again I am against government re-distribute people's wealth so yeah... sounds like socialism to me.

[Monster8V]

Maybe this is the root of our problem.


Yeah because we have already seen how WELL Socialism works. :rolleyes:

WHAT are they teaching you in that college of yours?? Seems to me THATS the root of this country's problem.. :cool:

[GTiGirl]

There is a nice compromise between capitalism and socialism... It's called social capitalism... and it works very nicely in countries such as the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany...

And they have taught me to think outside the box to find alternative solutions to problems... and to look at similar countries that have already paved the way for progress...

[allizard]

Yeah because we have already seen how WELL Socialism works. :rolleyes:

WHAT are they teaching you in that college of yours?? Seems to me THATS the root of this country's problem.. :cool:

Braahaaaa!!! :D that felt good!

[allizard]

I'm sorry GTiGirl I burst out of that comment from Monster8V.

But I've always find it strange why liberals always like to compare ourselves to other European countries?

[madajb]

There is a nice compromise between capitalism and socialism... It's called social capitalism... and it works very nicely in countries such as the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany...

Have you ever actually been to any of those countries?
The Germany economy is just now starting to come out of one of the worst recessions since the end of WWII. Quite a few people in high tech industries move abroad to the U.S. in order to find suitable work.
Sweden has one of the highest work absentee rates in the world, coupled with a very large welfare system and a shrinking workforce. They recently rejected EU integration, which may lead them further down a rocky path.
The Netherlands...well, you can't say much bad about the Dutch..other than those damn clogs! =)

-ajb