Maestro11
05-18-2008, 06:56 PM
Its a long story but worth the read if you care about where you spend your money and having work done right.
Backgound:
I wanted a K04 upgrade to my 2001 A4 (with only 23k miles on it) having already installed an APR exaust, GIAC stage I S/W and Carbonio intake. The car performed just fine without any trouble but since returning to the U.S. from Japan and keeping the car in storage I wanted to really bump up the HP. On the recommendation of a certain Audi dealership in Carlsbad I took my baby to Creative.
Creative seemed knowledgable enough and said the upgrade would cost me $1,800 and take three days. They didn't sell the GIAC S/W so they would send my ECU to Torque Works in L.A. (only now do I see why they didn't send me to Group5 instead). The work included the S/W, K04 install and A-pillar guages (Boost & Oil pressure).
Note: I specifically asked if I needed a new intercooler to go with the larger turbo and was told, "no, you should be fine with the stock unit".
Picking up the car, finally!
After waiting two weeks to pick up the car (remember I was told it would take 3 days) I went down and was excited to drive my new pumped up A4. I was told, quote, "you're good to go". I started the car and headed out to the 805 to go for a drive. On the on-ramp I stepped on it and the car bucked and sputtered like it was shot. I backed off the throttle, noticed the "check engine" light was on and imediately headed back to Creative. I wondered how could they car behave like that for me and not for them? Afterall they said it was "good to go". They put a VAG on it to read the code. It was "random misfires in cyl. #1 and #2, and running rich". I was told that happens sometimes with the stock coil packs, and I would need new ones from the TT. OK, that made sense having more boost, etc. more spark, whatever...what's another $200? New coil packs installed, same problem. "Must be the plugs" I was told. $40 more and another hour labor. Result? Problem still there. End result was "Its the software, that GIAC is no good". I bought that excuse since although I never had problems with the fist GIAC install maybe the program for K04 was indeed crap. But still I didn't think they really understood what was going on since all they seemed to do was keep swapping out parts without any other real scientifc method. I'm an electrical engineer by trade and their troubleshooting logic in my opinon was very flawed.
My car gets fixed..finally!
I ended up coming across Group5 Motorsports on the net and decided to see what they were all about. From the moment I walked in the door I could tell the two shops were like night and day. A clean, professionally layed out storefront. Friendly staff. I explained the trouble I was having and they were willing to see what was up. I should note here that they NEVER said one bad word about Creative! They scheduled some time and said they would solve the problem.
The first visit yielded some good progress. They called GIAC, explained the situation, and worked with them to gather some data from the car. The first result? The intercooler temps ran as high as 52 degrees C! I was told normal range was 32~34. I needed a new/larger intercooler and the diverter valve was leaking. But wait, didn't Creative say my stock unit would be fine? Hmmm. Shit! OK, what's another $1,200! I'm already balls deep into the project I might as well do it right. The result was a good portion of the hesitation was gone and turbo inlet temps were in the normal range but still there was hesitation and it still idled rough, turbo boost would modulate and the error codes (intermittent misfires and running rich) were still there. Looks like more work to be done (and more $).
Troy was great and continued to work directly with GIAC to troubleshoot. Next on the list, the fuel injectors. Creative insisted the best I could get were from Genesis and I paid a premium for them. GIAC said they sprayed like a garden hose and recommended I go with the Bosch 380's. OK, a couple more hours shop time and new injectors...another $500 out of the wallet. The trouble was getting better but it still modulated the boost on a full 3rd gear pull, it still idled rough and the fault codes came back.
I was pissed! Not at Troy or his shop but at the situation. But I still felt like Group5 was doing their best and GIAC was giving top customer service when they didn't have to.
Finally the intake was looked at. GIAC said they never tested the Carbonio intake and I wanted my car to match, part for part, the specification they used to tune their software. GIAC wasn't confident the airflow into the system was smooth. So, Troy installed the evoMS intake. But what did we find out? Upon taking apart the Carbonio intake it seems that Creative had broken part of the mounting flange when they installed the new TT MAF. I wasn't surprised. Instead of owning up to it they just hid their mistake thinking I'd never see it anyway. Also, the evo velocity stack didn't fit the TT 225 MAF. No worries, Troy's buddy across the street machined (perfectly) the stack 1/4" to fit the (new) Bosch TT MAF. Another part I paid for twice. Creative sold me some aftermarket junk.
Turnes out that finally was the last of the gremlins. No fault codes, no hestitation, no boost modulation...nothing but massive pull and a kick in the seat when you step on it.
I ultimately paid about $5,000 for the work but the car is awesome and parts are the best out there. I should have gone to Group5 from the start. I'm a customer from here on out. I'll be going back for coilovers soon. Troy and his team have my respect and my continued business from here on. Creative is nothing more than a shop that installs parts, they do not understand the cars systems like Group5 does.
Backgound:
I wanted a K04 upgrade to my 2001 A4 (with only 23k miles on it) having already installed an APR exaust, GIAC stage I S/W and Carbonio intake. The car performed just fine without any trouble but since returning to the U.S. from Japan and keeping the car in storage I wanted to really bump up the HP. On the recommendation of a certain Audi dealership in Carlsbad I took my baby to Creative.
Creative seemed knowledgable enough and said the upgrade would cost me $1,800 and take three days. They didn't sell the GIAC S/W so they would send my ECU to Torque Works in L.A. (only now do I see why they didn't send me to Group5 instead). The work included the S/W, K04 install and A-pillar guages (Boost & Oil pressure).
Note: I specifically asked if I needed a new intercooler to go with the larger turbo and was told, "no, you should be fine with the stock unit".
Picking up the car, finally!
After waiting two weeks to pick up the car (remember I was told it would take 3 days) I went down and was excited to drive my new pumped up A4. I was told, quote, "you're good to go". I started the car and headed out to the 805 to go for a drive. On the on-ramp I stepped on it and the car bucked and sputtered like it was shot. I backed off the throttle, noticed the "check engine" light was on and imediately headed back to Creative. I wondered how could they car behave like that for me and not for them? Afterall they said it was "good to go". They put a VAG on it to read the code. It was "random misfires in cyl. #1 and #2, and running rich". I was told that happens sometimes with the stock coil packs, and I would need new ones from the TT. OK, that made sense having more boost, etc. more spark, whatever...what's another $200? New coil packs installed, same problem. "Must be the plugs" I was told. $40 more and another hour labor. Result? Problem still there. End result was "Its the software, that GIAC is no good". I bought that excuse since although I never had problems with the fist GIAC install maybe the program for K04 was indeed crap. But still I didn't think they really understood what was going on since all they seemed to do was keep swapping out parts without any other real scientifc method. I'm an electrical engineer by trade and their troubleshooting logic in my opinon was very flawed.
My car gets fixed..finally!
I ended up coming across Group5 Motorsports on the net and decided to see what they were all about. From the moment I walked in the door I could tell the two shops were like night and day. A clean, professionally layed out storefront. Friendly staff. I explained the trouble I was having and they were willing to see what was up. I should note here that they NEVER said one bad word about Creative! They scheduled some time and said they would solve the problem.
The first visit yielded some good progress. They called GIAC, explained the situation, and worked with them to gather some data from the car. The first result? The intercooler temps ran as high as 52 degrees C! I was told normal range was 32~34. I needed a new/larger intercooler and the diverter valve was leaking. But wait, didn't Creative say my stock unit would be fine? Hmmm. Shit! OK, what's another $1,200! I'm already balls deep into the project I might as well do it right. The result was a good portion of the hesitation was gone and turbo inlet temps were in the normal range but still there was hesitation and it still idled rough, turbo boost would modulate and the error codes (intermittent misfires and running rich) were still there. Looks like more work to be done (and more $).
Troy was great and continued to work directly with GIAC to troubleshoot. Next on the list, the fuel injectors. Creative insisted the best I could get were from Genesis and I paid a premium for them. GIAC said they sprayed like a garden hose and recommended I go with the Bosch 380's. OK, a couple more hours shop time and new injectors...another $500 out of the wallet. The trouble was getting better but it still modulated the boost on a full 3rd gear pull, it still idled rough and the fault codes came back.
I was pissed! Not at Troy or his shop but at the situation. But I still felt like Group5 was doing their best and GIAC was giving top customer service when they didn't have to.
Finally the intake was looked at. GIAC said they never tested the Carbonio intake and I wanted my car to match, part for part, the specification they used to tune their software. GIAC wasn't confident the airflow into the system was smooth. So, Troy installed the evoMS intake. But what did we find out? Upon taking apart the Carbonio intake it seems that Creative had broken part of the mounting flange when they installed the new TT MAF. I wasn't surprised. Instead of owning up to it they just hid their mistake thinking I'd never see it anyway. Also, the evo velocity stack didn't fit the TT 225 MAF. No worries, Troy's buddy across the street machined (perfectly) the stack 1/4" to fit the (new) Bosch TT MAF. Another part I paid for twice. Creative sold me some aftermarket junk.
Turnes out that finally was the last of the gremlins. No fault codes, no hestitation, no boost modulation...nothing but massive pull and a kick in the seat when you step on it.
I ultimately paid about $5,000 for the work but the car is awesome and parts are the best out there. I should have gone to Group5 from the start. I'm a customer from here on out. I'll be going back for coilovers soon. Troy and his team have my respect and my continued business from here on. Creative is nothing more than a shop that installs parts, they do not understand the cars systems like Group5 does.