never mess with another man's automobile ... [mechanical problemo]

[Troike]

[insert frustration here]

My Father is extremely controlling, never even letting me change my own oil by myself (yes, I paid for every cent of the car). Today, when I was sleeping after getting off work at 7am, he decided to work on my car despite me telling him several times in the previous days not to, as I wanted to learn to do the maintenace myself.

I wake up and he says he put in new Bosch Platinum pre-gapped spark plugs, a distributor cap and rotor :rolleyes: I appreciate it, but wanted to do it myself, you know? Oh well, no harm done ...

Except I drive to work at 10:30 tonight, and not two blocks away it is accelerating funny ... the engine shudders/shakes/coughs as I accelerate from 1500-2200 rpm or so, rather violently. The CEL flashes at me when its shaking the hardest, and stays on steady the rest of the time (first time I ever saw that damn light!)
This continues all the way to work. Never passed 3000rpm, but any time I accelerated (light/partial/full) at any RPM, the engine shook badly and was extremely slow, until the rest of the power kicked in and it would cruise/deaccelerate smooth until the next attempt at acceleration.
The motor sounded like it was running pretty rough when I let it idle at work. The car also took a bit longer to start; it turned maybe 4-6 times rather than 2-3.

So, any ideas? After I sleep / take a test tomorrow (assuming my car makes it home) I'll pop the hood and try to disassemble/reassemble all the plugs/cap/rotor. We pulled the cap and outer plugs the other day to check them out, and had no problem after we put them back.
My neighbor (great racer/amateur mechanic) said the plug wires were fine, but perhaps the order got switched? I wouldn't think the car would start in this case though.
Is this what a misfire is? I'm still a mechanical noob. I suppose I shouldn't drive it if I can't fix it, but it doesnt seem like I'm doing any damage - it just runs like absolute crap.

If my car will make it to Escondido, I'll be out at the NC meet Thursday (won't drive unless the problem is fixed). Might have the CEL still on though, so if anyone has a VAG I'd appreciate it.

This is more irritating than my car being hit less than a week ago ... not going to find who did it, either. Although at least this problem should be fixed soon, but a bit more worrisome than a scraped bumper.

Thanks for the help :tup:

[cynicalgeek]

Well, first thing, stay away from the Bosch Platinums. Personal experience, yada, yada. I lot of others will agree, and some will argue there's no problem. Lots of threads on Vortex. Anyway, just stay with the stock plugs unless you have a good reason to use a different plug, and you'll be fine.

As far as the misfires go, it sounds like your plug wires. Maybe not fully seated? Maybe they got brittle and changing the plugs caused them to crack? Maybe he pulled on a wire instead of the boot to remove them? Give them a good once-over, and if they look fine and you have a meter, check the resistance of the wires.

And my first recommendation for anyone wanting to learn about their car, is to buy a manual. When you can, always get a Bentley. Forget the Chilton's, etc. and just buy the Bentley and read it. You'll learn a lot about how things are supposed to be working before you start to diagnose.

[Troike]

And my first recommendation for anyone wanting to learn about their car, is to buy a manual. When you can, always get a Bentley. Forget the Chilton's, etc. and just buy the Bentley and read it. You'll learn a lot about how things are supposed to be working before you start to diagnose.

Yeah, I've got a Bentley. It said the stock 2.0 plugs are Bosch (whereas VR6 are NKG), but I suppose the OE ones aren't platinum.

Hopefully everything will be cool once I mess with it tomorrow. If not I'll make my Dad give me his Benz ... although my mom's Honda is having showing signs of starting/rough idle problems as well, with much fewer miles and without him messing with it ... Asian cars aren't flawless after all .

Actually, don't have the proper wrenches, but might as well mess with it on my break. Nothin like workin on your car at 4:30am :D

[Troike]

Alright, looked around a bit ... didn't have pliers/wrench handy to pull the cap/plugs out, but all the plug wires seemed to be secure. I don't think they're original either, they look way too new to be 7 years / 80000 miles old, so doubt that's my problem.

One thing I did notice was some other wiring ... directly behind the distributor there's a large bundle of wires, surrounded by a black plastic tubing (looks like landscaping/rain gutter plastic, if that makes sense). It narrows as it travels to the passenger side; some of the coating looked extremely old, worn and split in some areas. It ends under the manifold in two ground wires on the block. From the distributor, some of the wires split off to the plugs/upper manifold.
I doubt this is the cause of my woes unless it somehow got nudged while installing the plugs/cap, but does anyone know what this bundle is? Don't have my Bentley handy, and I'll have a hard time finding it in a diagram anyway.

Maybe I'll post a pic later today. If I find out what the heck it is, I'll add it to my list of things to have looked at next week when I get my timing belt etc inspected.

Oh, and when I started it up this time, it didn't sound as rough. Revving in neutral it sounds fine and doesn't hesitate; its only when I drive in gear. I only drove it around in 1st gear this time, but from 1500-2200 it still sputtered. After that it accelerates fine. Its like driving a 60-year old turbo with bronchitis.

[cynicalgeek]

Well, if you don't get it sorted out by Thurs, I can take a look at the NC GTG. It already needs a VAG - the code will make sure you're pointed in the right direction. Maybe someone can hook you up before then to check the code and clear that light that's staring at you?

[Troike]

Alright, its better ... but not fixed.

Swapped the old rotor in this morning (almost wasn't able to get the distributor cap back on). The new rotor/cap already had some arcing on it - from only 7 miles of driving - showing the plugs were burning badly.

Got some regular copper, single-prong Bosch plugs today, put those in. Still starts a little slower than normal, but seemed to run mostly fine. Only time it still shakes/sputters on me is 2nd gear in the 1400-2200 rpm range. Not as strong as last time, luckily, and it seems to be wholly absent from any other gear/rpm range (up to 4k anyway). So the problem is better ... but still not fixed.

At least I can make it to work, though. I might have to waste my day off thursday or friday before work to take my car in, do my other service a bit early and have the techs try to figure out what's up. I'll definately roll out to the NC meet so long as I have my car though .. the VAG-COM could even tell us which cylinder/plug has the problem I suppose?

I've heard on Vortex that the platinums are no good too. Definately will avoid those like the plague in the future. The old plugs I pulled (which were always fine) were the same copper Bosch ones I just put in for try #3 though .. maybe the timing somehow got screwed up from the bad ones.

[mitssn]

Did you check the order of the plug wires??

I'd say "see dad I told you not to mess with my car... Now you have to pay to fix it"

[Troike]

Did you check the order of the plug wires??

I'd say "see dad I told you not to mess with my car... Now you have to pay to fix it"

Yeah, we mixed the order on one just to see what it'd do, and it ran super rough and barely started ... so that's not the problem. I just have trouble believing that a certain type of plug would cause the problems though, but can't think of what else might have happened.

[stereooptions]

probably broke the plug wires try replacing them and see what happens

[Troike]

probably broke the plug wires try replacing them and see what happens

I've thought about that, but a bit hesitant since they're pricey .. and now the car is running quite a bit better. Only bogs down a bit from 1200-2200 rpm in any gear other than first now that we swapped the plugs.

Something that occured to me ... what would the symptoms of incorrectly-gapped spark plugs be? The platinums he installed were supposedly pre-gapped, but I didn't think to ask if he checked to see if it was 6mm/.024 inches (IIRC, as Bentley specified). We have a gapper + measuring tool, if this could be a potential cause, it'll be the first thing I check.

I'd been planning on buying plug wires until my neighbor said mine were fine though, so depending on what my code reads and any other failed remedies in the next couple days, might just place an order.

Thanks for all the help Dan, you rock as always :tup:

[Troike]

alright, so they were gapped properly.
got an appointment for my timing belt etc. friday morning, so if i can't fix this by tomorrow in time to read/clear the code, i'll just have to have City deal with it. Don't want to drive this running poorly any longer than I have to, and it has to be my daily driver.

[mike]

He needed that plug wire tool. he probably damaged a wire or didn't get it on all the way, Did he have the little brass bullets on the end of the plug? some times you have to screw them on the plug as they are in the box. seen that on cause head aches before.
Bosch platinum's are garbage.

[Troike]

Much thanks to Dan for the help last night.

Some more oddness though ... took my car down to City this morning, CEL still on, slight kick (but I kept the RPM high to avoid it).

I told them not to mess with the problem, and the unrelated service they did was real quick, and they didn't mention or charge for anything related to the CEL / ignition problem .. but when I got my car back, the CEL was gone, and now in the previously troublesome RPM range it accelerates fine :confused:

I can understand the CEL perhaps; maybe they reset it for free, and it was the combo of the damaged wire + bad plugs that was really messing up my car .. swapping out for more standard plugs, even with slightly damaged wire, perhaps isn't enough to trip a CEL, so once they reset it, it's stayed off ... but why the problem now is gone completely? :confused:

In any event, ordered a new set of plug wires and a proper metal plug wire removal tool, so without a doubt, by the next NC meet I should have all new parts and be able to clear any new codes once and for all

Much thanks :tup:

[909dub]

He needed that plug wire tool. he probably damaged a wire or didn't get it on all the way, Did he have the little brass bullets on the end of the plug? some times you have to screw them on the plug as they are in the box. seen that on cause head aches before.
Bosch platinum's are garbage.

That wire tool is essential for doing the plugs/wires.

Those 2.0 wires are extremely delicate and will arc if they are not removed with the tool.

Also, do not use anything other than Bosch cap and rotor. Everything else is crap!

As for the plugs, I also prefer the Super. They are cheap and reliable. Platinum is just another way of making them more expensive.

The technician probably probably found your problem and fixed it for free. Sometimes they are nice like that ;)

[Troike]

Finally got around to installing the Eurosport plug wires today (not before a misfire threw another code up this afternoon though, doh! Had it clear for a week).

Seems to accelerate normally (i.e. perfectly smooth) in the real low RPM range, so looks like my woes are over.

Since the Eurosport wires are a bit thicker than the OE ones, I couldn't reuse the plastic piece that clips in and holds the wires together under the intake manifold ... but since the wires are rated for high temps I don't anticipate it being a problem.

Thanks for letting me borrow the plug remover Dan .. I ordered a metal one with my plug wires, but the plastic one came in handy to get the wire off cylinder 2 without having to disconnect the injector :tup:

If you're at the NC meet thursday, I'll throw it back your way ... and have you clear this misfire code once and for all.


Lessons learned:
- Always use plug removal tool (something I already knew)
- Don't use Bosch Platinums (something I also knew)
- Don't let idiots work on your car (another thing I knew).

At least I can say I know what a CEL looks like now, and learned a decent amount about spark/timing issues ... even if it did cost me a bit and was from no fault of my own.

Can't complain much, after two years and 14,000 miles myself, still have only had one thing break by itself, and it cost me $0 to replace. I regretted spending so much initially, but as the calendar continues to flip, its increasingly becoming worth it :)

Now if only I had $$ for suspension ...